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Author Topic: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09  (Read 33213 times)

Offline speedotann

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757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« on: December 22, 2009, 11:14:27 AM »
I have posted in the past about this aa254 (heavy) and united 162 (regular) Both 757-200's... This is what I got last night. The Lax tower ask aa192 if they are a heavy or a regular "Seven Five". Enlighten me fellas!!



Offline joeyb747

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2009, 12:48:53 PM »
All 757-300s are heavies. Some 757-200s have extra fuel tanks, putting MTOW above 255,000lbs, making them a heavy. 757-200s without the extra fuel tanks are not heavies, but are usually treated as such for separation on final and take off due to wake turbulence produced by the 757.

Simply put, an airplane with a MTOW of 255,000 lbs or more is a heavy.

Offline sykocus

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2009, 01:26:40 PM »
Was it necessary to start another topic on this, um...topic? I thought it was answered by myself and others in several before.

Offline tyketto

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2009, 01:33:22 PM »
To nip this in the bud, this is why the controller asked:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.504.pdf

If the first B752 is heavy and the B752 that is following him is not, 5 miles separation.
If the first B752 is not heavy and the B752 that is following him is, 4 miles separation.
If the first B752 is heavy and the B752 that is following him is also heavy, 4 miles separation.

ATC will not know that from the flight strip, so they have to ask.

BL.

Offline Jason

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2009, 01:36:11 PM »
To nip this in the bud, this is why the controller asked:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.504.pdf

If the first B752 is heavy and the B752 that is following him is not, 5 miles separation.
If the first B752 is not heavy and the B752 that is following him is, 4 miles separation.
If the first B752 is heavy and the B752 that is following him is also heavy, 4 miles separation.

ATC will not know that from the flight strip, so they have to ask.

BL.


Also note that some facilities direct controllers to treat all 757's as heavy now. It varies facility to facility.

Offline speedotann

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2009, 02:02:39 PM »
The reason i put this up is exactly what you read. Everyone says something different every time.

Offline speedotann

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 02:04:25 PM »
Was it necessary to start another topic on this, um...topic? I thought it was answered by myself and others in several before.

What is the big deal? Trying to get a straight answer...

Offline Jason

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2009, 02:17:23 PM »
The reason i put this up is exactly what you read. Everyone says something different every time.

We are all trying to help answer your question. That's the community environment we aspire for.

Best,

Offline speedotann

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2009, 02:22:47 PM »
Well, I found out one thing for sure, All 757's are not heavy.

Offline sykocus

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 03:11:27 PM »
The reason i put this up is exactly what you read. Everyone says something different every time.


Was it necessary to start another topic on this, um...topic? I thought it was answered by myself and others in several before.

What is the big deal? Trying to get a straight answer...

I didn't until now notice you were the same one asking the question the last 3 times. If you want clarification then it's best to ask for it. By asking the same question anew 3 times people start over from the beginning and you don't necessarily get any new information.

People aren't giving different answers each time, they are giving the same some just add different information then others. It would help too if you clarify what exactly you don't understand. Are you wondering why the controller is asking the plane or why some are called heavy and some not? Or something else. There is no problem asking a question, but if you aren't getting the information you want repeatedly asking the same question isn't he way to get it. 

In summery:
From appendix A of USDOT FAA Order 7110.65R

http://www.borzov.net/Pilot/ATC.pdf

"AIRCRAFT WEIGHT CLASSES
a. Heavy. Aircraft capable of takeoff weights of
more than 255,000 pounds whether or not they are
operating at this weight during a particular phase of
flight.

b. Large. Aircraft of more than 41,000 pounds,
maximum certificated takeoff weight, up to
255,000 pounds.
c. Small. Aircraft of 41,000 pounds or less
maximum certificated takeoff weight."






It boils down to this. All 753's are heavies. Some 752's are heavies due to extra fuel tanks and being rated for a higher MTOW then most 752's. Even the 752's that are not heavies have special separation rules that apply to them on final, but it's not as simple as treating them as heavies.

We now have to treat all 757 200 series as heavies. But if you ask the pilot and they state that they are not a heavy then you can treat them as a regular 757.



If you have more questions feel free to ask, but it's not necessarily to start a new thread when you hear a controller call a 752 a heavy.

Offline speedotann

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2009, 03:41:32 PM »
I get it now.... Thanks for all of the responses. Do all of AA's 757's have the winglets? add on tanks?

Offline tyketto

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2009, 10:58:58 PM »
I get it now.... Thanks for all of the responses. Do all of AA's 757's have the winglets? add on tanks?

To my knowledge, no, and no.

The only airline that did have their entire fleet B752s configured (whether it be by extra tanks, or other configurations) to exceed the 255,000lb MTOW was the now-defunct ATA Airlines. Everyone else now varies.

BL.

Offline Pileits

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2009, 03:48:15 AM »
I get it now.... Thanks for all of the responses. Do all of AA's 757's have the winglets? add on tanks?

As far as I know there are NO "add on tanks" made for 757s.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2009, 09:48:33 PM »
I get it now.... Thanks for all of the responses. Do all of AA's 757's have the winglets? add on tanks?

As far as I know there are NO "add on tanks" made for 757s.

Extra tanks for the B757 are possible. The B757-200X is an airplane in study for possible release. It would combine the fuselage of the B757-200 with the wing structure of the B757-300, with extra fuel tanks on board. With a MTOW of 272,000 lbs, that would qualify the airplane as a heavy. Also, there is a military version called the VC-32A that has extra tanks in the cargo holds.

"757-200X: Projected extended-range version under study in 1999; would combine fuselage of 757-200 with strengthened wing structure of 757-300; two auxiliary fuel tanks in aft cargo hold, combined capacity 3,785 litres (1,000 US gallons; 833 Imp gallons); maximum take-off weight 123,375 kg (272,000 lb); range 5,000 n miles; (9,260 km; 5,753 miles)."

"VC-32A: Boeing 757-2G4. Four, with PW2040 engines, ordered 8 August 1996 as replacements for VC-137s of USAF's 89th Airlift Wing at Andrews AFB, Maryland. First aircraft (98-0001) flew 11 February 1998 and was delivered to 89th AW on 19 June. Further three followed on 23 June, 20 November and 25 November 1998. Post-production modifications, performed at Boeing's Wichita facility and completed on first aircraft on 2 April 1999, include installation of auxiliary fuel tanks, capacity 6,984 litres (1,845 US gallons; 1,536 Imp gallons) in forward and aft cargo holds, increasing range to 5,000 n miles (9,260 km; 5,753 miles); self-deploying forward airstair; crew ladder; satcom upgrade; and 378 litre (100 US gallon; 83.0 Imp gallon) potable water tank."

From:

http://www.janes.com/aerospace/civil/news/jawa/boeing_757-200.shtml


« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 06:46:24 AM by joeyb747 »

Offline joeyb747

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2009, 10:17:29 PM »
And let's not forget:

"757-300; two auxiliary fuel tanks in aft cargo hold, combined capacity 3,785 litres (1,000 US gallons; 833 Imp gallons); maximum take-off weight 123,375 kg (272,000 lb); range 5,000 n miles; (9,260 km; 5,753 miles)."

Also from:

http://www.janes.com/aerospace/civil/news/jawa/boeing_757-200.shtml

Offline CYUL

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2009, 04:10:20 PM »
Hi

We had AAL055 into YUL  this week inbound from Manchester to ORD for a fuel stop,. They did not use the"heavy" indicator, this was a B752.

Paul

Offline Pushin_Tin

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2010, 11:15:46 PM »
I thought I'd chime in since I'm the controller in the audio clip. At LAX, we send out a large majority of our clearances via PDC. It's a computer system that allows us to send flight plans directly to an aircraft's ACARS, where the pilots recieve it on a printout, instead of having to read every clearance verbally. At LAX, this saves us a HUGE hassle of reading almost a thousand flight plans a day. Anyways, we got word a couple months ago that some AAL B757-200 series aircraft were outfitted with extra fuel capacity, cause them to fall under the "Heavy" weight-class. So, we no longer send any AAL B757-200 flight plans via PDC because we have to ask each one if they are a Heavy or not. If they are a Heavy, then we go into the system and change the info on their flight plan. If not, then we place a check mark next to their identifier on the flight strip, indicating that it's been verified they're not a Heavy. So when AAL192 approached the runway for departure, I saw that there was no checkmark next to his identifier and that's why I verified if he was a Heavy or not. Hopefully this answers any questions you guys had. -SM

kea001

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2010, 02:03:15 PM »
I thought I'd chime in....

LOL! Thank g**. I thought the knives were out for this one.

Offline speedotann

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2010, 08:38:11 PM »
I thought I'd chime in since I'm the controller in the audio clip. At LAX, we send out a large majority of our clearances via PDC. It's a computer system that allows us to send flight plans directly to an aircraft's ACARS, where the pilots recieve it on a printout, instead of having to read every clearance verbally. At LAX, this saves us a HUGE hassle of reading almost a thousand flight plans a day. Anyways, we got word a couple months ago that some AAL B757-200 series aircraft were outfitted with extra fuel capacity, cause them to fall under the "Heavy" weight-class. So, we no longer send any AAL B757-200 flight plans via PDC because we have to ask each one if they are a Heavy or not. If they are a Heavy, then we go into the system and change the info on their flight plan. If not, then we place a check mark next to their identifier on the flight strip, indicating that it's been verified they're not a Heavy. So when AAL192 approached the runway for departure, I saw that there was no checkmark next to his identifier and that's why I verified if he was a Heavy or not. Hopefully this answers any questions you guys had. -SM

Thanks For this. I got hammered for asking this question. Every one had a different or modified answer.... Now we know why everyone.... It was the tanks!!!!!!!!

Offline Pushin_Tin

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2010, 10:00:10 PM »
No prob! I think it's really cool that you enjoy listening to ATC at LAX. I really wish they had another feed for the Ground Control 1 (South Ground) frequency. That's the position that can really get wild sometimes. We were listening to a couple of other clips today and saw the "LAX Rabbit Chase". I was like, "I wonder what that's all about." Come to find out, it was another clip of me telling the City Ops vehicle to proceed on runway 25R for the runway inspection... or the uhhh, rabbit chase. haha.  Anyways, keep up the good work!

TC

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2010, 08:06:32 AM »
PushinTin:  curious, where did the (I assume) local procedure not to send the AAL clearances via pdc come from?  Did the BU push for it to protect themselves, or management implement it.  I've continued to operate under the previous guidance that I assume every 75 is a heavy unless I *know* otherwise.  I'm completely baffled how/why the agency continues to allow this to be an issue, rather than hammer the users and get them to file correctly or face penalties, or classify all 75's as heavies in the interests of safety.  why do we controllers have to come up with workarounds?  just curious.

tell creighton (not sure what initials he's using) TC @ BOS said hello...

Offline Pushin_Tin

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Re: 757 heavy question from the controller. KLAX 12-21-09
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2010, 08:47:05 AM »
Hey there TC! Basically, it was another one of those issues that management threw onto the controllers. They claimed that AAL dispatch could not enter the heavy designator into the B752 flight plans. So instead of fixing the system, guess who has to do all the extra legwork? There was something initially that said if the preceeding a/c was a B752, then treat it as a Heavy for wake turbulance application, or if the succeeding a/c was a B752, treat it as a non-heavy for wake turbulance application. Wouldn't it be easier for them to either all be designated Heavys or not? haha 
Ps: "Tall Paul" transferred to Denver Tower last July.