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| | |-+  787 Captain irked by taxiway traffic at KSFB 7-26-2013 21:26Z
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Author Topic: 787 Captain irked by taxiway traffic at KSFB 7-26-2013 21:26Z  (Read 16756 times)
SFBAce
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« on: July 27, 2013, 03:08:38 PM »

We had a wee bit of trouble getting the dreamliner out the door at KSFB yesterday afternoon.
The 787 pilots had a minor spat with the tower-- seems there was a small difference in expectations each of the other.
Attached is the audio.
30 min. of audio attached but just skip forward to where the fun starts at 26:03. Then for the next 4 1/2 min.
I have tried to transcribe it best I could.
The 787 is trying to taxi from the terminal to bravo one but is stuck at bravo two.


26:03 tower, Thompson 127 heavy is with you and is holding short of bravo 2

26:12 Thompson 127 heavy, Sanford tower, hold short runway Niner left

26:15 Thompson 127 heavy, we can't get past this light aircraft at the moment.

26:19 Thompson 127 heavy, Roger, verify hold short runway Niner left

26:24 Thompson 127 heavy, we are unable to taxi due to light aircraft in front of us at the moment.

26:30 Thompson 127 heavy, I understand that but when I give you a clearance to hold short of a runway I need a Readback. Hold short runway Niner left please.

26:37 Okay, we'll hold short runway Niner left in turn???, Thompson 127 heavy

26:48 (other pilot comes on) tower, do you expect us to taxi over the top of this light aircraft? Thompson 127 heavy

27:03 Thompson 127 heavy, uh, I'm not sure what you mean. You are in control of the aircraft. Do what you think is uh, safe for you. I think ground controller just taxied you to runway Niner left full length, correct?

27:13 Yes, but there's a light aircraft!  If I taxi now, I'll put my wing over the top of a light aircraft. Its an extremely dangerous situation.  Is that what you're expecting  me to do? Thompson 127 heavy

27:24 Thompson 127 heavy, negative, I, I expect you to hold short of runway niner left. If you need to stop there and wait for that aircraft to take off, that's fine.

29:44 Thompson 127 heavy, approaching bravo one, then the hold and ready for departure.

30:17 Thompson 127 heavy, Sanford tower. Fly heading 080. Climb and maintain 5000. Runway Niner left. Cleared for takeoff.

30:23 heading 080. Climb, maintain altitude 5000 feet. Cleared for takeoff. Thompson 127 heavy
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 05:04:26 PM by SFBAce » Logged
flyflyfly
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2013, 04:18:31 PM »

Thanks for the recording and transcript. smiley

Correction for the first line, it should read:
26:03 tower, Thompson 127 heavy is with you and is holding short of bravo 2.
They were not reporting any issues at that time.
(and btw, it's always "cleared for takeoff", never "clear for takeoff"...  wink ).

Thompson 127 switched to tower frequency before they had actually reached their designated runway holding point (B1) - so when they encountered another obstacle, they needed to resolve their "taxiing conflict" on tower frequency. Apparently ground control had told thompson to switch to tower frequency a bit too early...
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philip
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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2013, 11:04:44 AM »

Thanks, i'll upload to my youtube if its ok? Cant beleive i filmed the flight after it arrived in manchester.  If only it was the same pilot
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SFBAce
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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2013, 04:09:20 PM »

Of course it's fine to add to your YouTube.  Thanks for asking though.
How fun that you filmed the landing-- I filmed the takeoff!
I've attached the video but i warn you-- it's pretty poor video from my cell phone....

BTW, thanks, flyflyfly, for the transcription corrections.
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UnitedFlyer737
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United Boeing 737-700 in the picture. (Old Livery)


« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2013, 08:42:38 PM »

Thanks for the Transcript.
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United for the win!
svoynick
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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2013, 10:25:06 PM »

I've attached an edited-down version that starts at Thomson's initial callup to tower.

Thompson 127 switched to tower frequency before they had actually reached their designated runway holding point (B1) - so when they encountered another obstacle, they needed to resolve their "taxiing conflict" on tower frequency. Apparently ground control had told thompson to switch to tower frequency a bit too early...
I've only flown GA and never anything big or scheduled, nor have I spent much time listening to ground control at large airports, but I thought that the expected protocol is you stay with Ground until you reach your departure runway (or the queue to it, if there is one...) and then switch and make contact with Tower at that time.  When I flew, Ground didn't give an explicit frequency change to Tower - you just did it when you reached the runway.  I would be glad if someone with more relevant experience than mine would either confirm this or correct me...

If that is the case, then if Thomson felt he needed to resolve the taxiway movement issue on the air, shouldn't he have done so with Ground on his way to the runway?  Note that once he calls up Tower, he gets a basic "Tower" instruction: hold short of the departure runway.  By contacting Tower before he was in the expected position, and then heckling them about a ground movement issue,he effectively just added to Tower's workload, requiring Tower to address an issue that's normally handled with Ground.

Alternately, it seems like he could have just read back the clearance to hold short of 9L and then added something like "and we'll be waiting here behind B2 until this light aircraft departs."  Instead, it's like he was treating the clearance to taxi as a mandate to taxi right now, which must be why it seemed to him to be an "extremely dangerous situation."
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RV1
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2013, 08:02:04 AM »

At every airport I've worked at, the Ground controller does not tell the pilot when to contact the local controller. It shouldn't matter whether it is a GA or Air Carrier pilot. It is their responsibility to advise LC when they are ready for go. However, turbojet aircraft are expected to be ready upon reaching the intended departure runway. We expect GA aircraft, and even those that are air taxi to tell us when they are ready to go after doing their runup. You are correct that if the pilot was unable to complete his taxi, he should state so to the ground controller, not the local controller. As a local controller, I don't want someone with taxi issues calling me and jamming up my freq with fodder. If, however, he calls me and tells me that he is with me, regardless of his position, I will issue a runway hold short instruction, which I will expect to be read back. Even if he was number three for departure, I would either say "Rodger" or "Rodger, hold short of runway (?)".
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Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
NEILCM
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2013, 05:45:07 PM »

I feel had  the Tower Controller said is something like:- "Thompson 127 Heavy,  Once the Cessna ahead of you is clear, Taxi to and hold short of B1 Runway 09L"

The controller gave an ambiguous request,  therefore was requesting the Thompson to comply with a clearance that was not safe.

Now people can obviously say that if there's and aircraft there you wait for it to move However a controller expects someone to take him seriously and follow his instructions he should put them in a position to question an instruction.

BigNCM
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rolfe_tessem
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 09:14:36 PM »

The Thompson guy was a complete wanker. Let's leave it at that smiley.
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SirIsaac726
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2013, 06:57:00 PM »

The Tower controller never told him to taxi ahead - he simply told him to hold short of an active runway. All Thompson had to do was acknowledge the hold short instruction and, if they felt appropriate, advise the Tower controller that they are at B2 waiting for traffic to clear.

On the flip side, the Tower controller could have also explained things a little better and, as NEILCM indicated, he could have said something to the effect of, "when able, continue taxi and hold short of runway 9L." If it was crystal clear to us that Thompson was confused, it was likely crystal clear to the controller that the Thompson crew needed a bit more that he gave them.
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flyindart
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2013, 07:38:03 PM »

My read on the situation:

The Thompson pilot thought that the "hold short" instruction implied "taxi to the hold line now".

The Tower controller simply stated "hold short", which is an entirely different sentence than "taxi up to the hold line".

I'm with the controller on this one.  The pilot needs to give his head a shake and actually listen to the words being spoken...and I'm a pilot.
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