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Author Topic: A320 grounds left wing during aborted crosswind landing in Hamburg today  (Read 60140 times)
iskyfly
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« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2008, 09:49:37 AM »

Keep in mind this is an Airbus aircraft; ie- computer between pilot and flight controls interpreting what the pilots inputs are and affect flight controls based on the computers flight logic / law that among other things has roll rate limiting. Also, having a sidestick make it difficult to input continuous low wing into crosswind.

Pilot flying the approach ;
http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermischtes/2008/03/04/pilotin/hat-in-hamburg-flugzeug-bei-orkan-landung,geo=3926766.html
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RedOct
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« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2008, 10:33:29 AM »

No, the other way around - aborted landing on 33 and successful on 23 (or should it be 5).

Now, here's my question. Why were they directed to land on 33 in such a crosswind when they could land more or less straight into the wind on 5?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 10:42:53 AM by RedOct » Logged
iskyfly
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« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2008, 10:42:59 AM »

No, the other way around - aborted landing on 15/33 and successful on 5/23.
nope. aborted on 23 and landed on 33.
Quote
Now, here's my question. Why the heck were they directed to 15/33 S/N in such a crosswind when they could land almost straight into the wind on 5/23 E/W?
either way, the crew should of demanded 33.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2008, 01:29:57 PM »

Hope I never fly in a plane where you are the pilot.  Stick does not control rudder, unless you are flying flight sim with auto rudder turned on.w speed flight with high input.

Can't tell if your comment were only directed at the Airbus or instead directed at aircraft as a whole but in the event it was the latter, consider this:  The Beechcraft V35 Bonanza is one such aircraft where ailerons and rudder both are controlled (rudder to some degree) by the yoke, as the two control systems are linked together.  This was a feature purposely introduced by Beech early on as a way of marketing the airplane to the masses back when manufacturers were really trying to put an airplane in everyone's garage.  This feature allows the pilot to perform a coordinated turn with feet flat on the floor (off the pedals) and only yoke input, much like driving a car.   Of course aileron-induced rudder control is able to be be overridden by rudder pedals, but long duration slips are discouraged as per the POH - Crab and a short slip method within 10 seconds of touchdown is the recommended crosswind approach.

The one negative aspect of this feature (other than it encourages rudder complacency) I discovered is that during a crosswind takeoff where aileron is used to deflect the crosswind, extra rudder pressure above that required for the left-turning tendencies is also needed to overcome the forces placed on the rudder by this linked aileron/rudder system.  This can be somewhat unsettling to a pilot transitioning to the V35, as I discovered during my first crosswind takeoff soon after receiving my high-performance/retract endorsement.

With this knowledge, I wouldn't be surprised if the Airbus has a similar system in concept (but much more complex).
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Regards, Peter
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2008, 01:41:10 PM »

Oh, and FWIW my opinion of this landing is in line with Cessna157's.  The approach was a stabilized, crab-style crosswind approach that looked perfect to me until it fell apart by an ill-timed gust combined with perhaps a too docile aileron correction at the slip/kickout right before touchdown.  This allowed the wind to get under the upwind wing to lift the right side and shove the aircraft off the centerline.   Whether this happened because that wind gust exceeded the aircraft's design to counter it or because the pilot momentarily exhibited poor technique, I don't have the experience to say.


In much lower gusts this once happened to me during my student soloing days in a C172, but in that event I can guarantee me sliding off the right side of the runway was due to poor pilot technique.  Smiley  Fortunately the runway was wide enough to recover, but tire rubber was left behind.
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Regards, Peter
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cessna157
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« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2008, 01:43:47 PM »


That, my good friend, is a better description of the events than I could ever have done.  Right on
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
SkanknTodd
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« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2008, 04:47:08 PM »

Anyone else notice that Maxi J. is pretty hot?
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RedOct
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« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2008, 05:01:29 PM »

Two questions on the photo: http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887&filename=phpOltUWB.jpg

1. Still shows a left wing strike on runway 33. So, if first landing attempt was made on 23 and second on 33, did the wing strike on the 2nd attempt on 33 also?

2. Why did the crew not engage the outboard spoilers partially on the right wing to force it down?
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cessna157
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« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2008, 05:10:32 PM »

Why did the crew not engage the outboard spoilers partially on the right wing to force it down?

That's just not how it works.  On landing, proper crosswind technique would be to apply up aileron on the upwind wing to try to keep the wind from getting under it and tossing the airplane to the side (which is exactly what happened here).  There is no switch or lever to "engage" the spoilers.  The spoilerons/roll spoilers would automatically extend if enough aileron input was used.  You can see this every time an air carrier aircraft taxis out and they do their control check.  When I do a flight control check on my aircraft (CRJ700 and CRJ900), I'm checking for: 1) free/full movement of the yoke; 2) free/full movement of both ailerons; and 3) full/correct application of the spoileron function of the Multi-Function Spoilers (fly by wire on my aircraft).
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
hotel
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« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2008, 07:42:39 AM »

I am sorry but this initial approach to try to land on a runway just because it has an ILS, With all this x wind sow’s a  lack of judgment.
hero?
Or just a pure luck.
 cry

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hotel
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« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2008, 07:53:21 AM »


 They should have (1) put the left wheel down (they had an opportunity), immediately followed by (2) yawing the nose to left, immediately followed by (3) engaging partial spoilers on right wing to keep it or force it down which would have touched down the right wheel.

Stick on fly-by-wire A321 serves the same function as yoke, i.e. control of ailerons, elevators and rudder.

They should have tried again, but the wing strike left them too scared. Hamburg is a busy airport, yet you don't have another remarkable video to go with this. Case closed.

Hope I never fly in a plane where you are the pilot.  Stick does not control rudder, unless you are flying flight sim with auto rudder turned on.

Your method of cross wind landing would likely results in what happened here, or worse.  Just before touchdown at flare, rudder is applied to aligne plane with runway and the upwind wing is lowered to prevent incoming wind from lifting it and compensate for cross wind.  Most wing tip strikes on cross wind landings are due to the pilot overcompensating with the upwind wing. (and its ussually the upwind wingtip that strikes)

An added benefit here (sarcasm) is the fly-by wire system on the airbus.  My understanding is that the system tends to dampen the roll input of the pilot, especially if it is applied immediately after a yaw input..

I would rate it as pilot error. There was too much left rudder, and the crew failed to utilize partial spoilers on the right wing to force it down. See Korean Airline crew successfully land a 747 in extreme crosswind - notice the partial spoilers engaged on right wing to force it down.

Partial spoiler input on the 747 is automatic based on amount of roll input from the pilot.  The pilot on that 747 did not 'flip the lever' to input some spoiler.  The 747 is designed to do that automatically during slow speed as an aid to the pilot because of the size of the airlerons.  The 747 has two sets of airlerons, one for low speed, one for high speed, and additional it uses the spoilers during low speed flight with high input.

I am sorry but this initial approach to try to land on a runway just because it has an ILS, With all this x wind sow’s a  lack of judgment.
hero?
Or just a pure luck.


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Jodok01
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« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2008, 12:25:06 PM »



This version has camera-movement compensation applied and runs smoother.

If you ask me, the left center gear actually touches down at 0:17 into the clip.
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iskyfly
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« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2008, 01:04:04 PM »

high quality pics of landing and damage here;

http://www.airdisaster.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=408
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At-Tair
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« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2008, 08:55:06 PM »

I would just love to see one of the people's faces onboard.
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PHXCONXrunner
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« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2008, 08:53:28 PM »

The guy was sideways coming over the fence.  Don't you all agree that such an unstabilized approach

How about you learn a thing or two about airplanes before you make a bonehead out of yourself?
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