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Author Topic: AAY emergency landing. KSFB  (Read 47659 times)
rubymountian
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2007, 01:39:35 AM »

OMG that seaplane pilot was an A$$ im half tempted to look up his address on the faa aircraft registration and send him a letter.  and a copy of his audio clip.  there was an emergancy in progress he should just do as hes told. and get out of the airspace. ugg.
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Check Airman
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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2007, 03:04:43 AM »

Bravo Zulu to that controller for maintaining prefessional composure in that most annoying situation.
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KASWspotter
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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2007, 11:11:59 AM »

Wow. He was crying about wasting his fuel. How about the time of the controllers he wasted during that emergency. I'm smart enough to know that if there is an emergency in progress you limit non essential communications. This guy needs a kick in the butt.
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XJETJUNKIE
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2007, 04:22:56 PM »

This just angers me to no point.  When an emergency is declared you do as your told and ask no questions unless it has to do with safety.  This guy should lose his right to fly!
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Dr Bob
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« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2007, 05:27:03 PM »

As PIC he can say unable if he thinks any irection form ATC will put HIM in jeopardy. Short of that you do what they say.

He is a seaplane....why didn't he just land in the water (he was over the lake) and wait it out....then fly as he wants. tongue
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YWGTower
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« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2007, 07:52:27 PM »

That seaplane really pissed me off.
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zmatt
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« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2007, 11:29:06 AM »

Thanks for the clip biff, i love your site i use it all the time.
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kcabpilot
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2007, 03:16:10 PM »

I know the seaplane fellow, he's an ex-Navy A7 pilot and a great guy. He does like to elucidate with controllers over the radio but he's not the dolt or asshole you are all making him out to be. This audio clip was time condensed and edited plus the controller admitted that the reason for the vector was because a supervisor had deemed it so (micro-managing) I'd guess that both the controller and the pilot knew that there was no impending conflict.

Plus, he did everything they asked him to do (albeit with a bit of fanfare)

I'm only here because I saw a blurb about a seaplane pilot in Florida and thought 'Naw, it couldn't be...' I have to chuckle at his unintended noteriety  cheesy
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2007, 04:06:20 PM »

I know the seaplane fellow, he's an ex-Navy A7 pilot and a great guy. He does like to elucidate with controllers over the radio but he's not the dolt or asshole you are all making him out to be.

Your acquaintance complained way too much over the air for what amounted to approximately four extra nautical miles outside his preferred route.  If he had a problem with the controller, he should have simply asked for the phone number of the tower, noted the time, date, and frequency on his lapboard, then took it up with the tower supervisor after he landed. 

Being an ex-Navy A7 pilot, assuming this is indeed fact, demonstrates to me nothing more than (for that moment) the inflated ego behind the pilot who tied up the controller in useless and potentially distracting banter.

Hey, if nothing else this clip shows that we all are human and prone to mistakes no matter the experience we have accumulated. 

 

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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
kcabpilot
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« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2007, 04:49:23 PM »

Your acquaintance complained way too much over the air for what amounted to approximately four extra nautical miles outside his preferred route.

Agreed, and there are a lot of guys on this forum who are getting their undies in a bunch over what is basically nothing more than what you just said. Calm down folks, you're acting like a mob!  shocked
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2007, 05:24:59 PM »

Agreed, and there are a lot of guys on this forum who are getting their undies in a bunch over what is basically nothing more than what you just said.

Hmmm...  you got quite the spin going there.   19 distinct authors in this thread, including your moniker, of 6453 total forum members.  Not a lot in my book.  In my opinion the majority of those posters were simply engaging in intelligent discussion and really only perhaps three or so seemed a bit over the top.   

Sorry your buddy was on the receiving end of this thread.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
kcabpilot
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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2007, 06:29:52 PM »

Not trying to spin anything, I should have said this 'thread' rather than 'forum'
As I'm new here I don't even know what's in this forum outside of this particular thread.

Not that my aquaintance didn't deserve his 15 minutes of flame but some of the remarks did seem over the top to me. I mean, looking up the guy's phone number and writing letters and really, really getting pissed off.... I don't see any of that as being called for.

I'm still laughing about it but I guess you'd have to know this guy to understand, he is quite a character.
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Biff
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« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2007, 09:29:13 PM »

Hey kcabpilot,

Just to be clear, the clip was edited for time, but not content.  All of his transmissions are in there, they actually took place over a 10-15 minute period.  He certainly has a right to complain that "sterilizing the airspace" was overkill, but disregarding instructions and then arguing with the tower controller while there's an emergency in progress was pretty poor judgment.

No, it doesn't warrant a lynching.  ATC has his tail number, if he pissed them off enough they'll handle it.

I'm curious where you saw this blurb?  And did the call the tower the next day?   Smiley
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kcabpilot
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« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2007, 02:15:31 AM »

Biff

I caught a link in one of the AOPA forums. I've been home with the flu past three days so have been browsing a lot of forums! I just saw the thing about Sanford and a seaplane pilot on the airwaves and thought 'Naw, it couldn't be' - but sure enough.

Knowing the area, the pilot and considering the situation as it was I think this is a big non-issue. I don't know if he called the tower but knowing him I'd guess that he probably did. I know that he has butted heads with a lot of folks that are constantly trying to close seaplane access to lakes in the area and like many general aviation pilots is frustrated with the over-reactionary methods of dealing with situations these days which seems to warrant a TFR at any politician's whim.

Still, I'll agree he was out of line on this one and should probably just put a sock in it  grin
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Ben Diss
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« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2007, 07:09:59 AM »

... but disregarding instructions ...

Sure, he was a jerk to the controller, but he didn't disregard the instruction. 

I still wonder why the controller didn't simply issue "Remain clear of the class C airspace" on his initial callup?

-Ben
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Biff
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« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2007, 08:07:00 AM »

Sure, he was a jerk to the controller, but he didn't disregard the instruction. 

He certainly did.  He was told three times: to circumnavigate the airspace, circumnavigate Lake Jessup, and remain east of the river.  He ignored all three.
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Ben Diss
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« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2007, 03:57:56 PM »

Yea, OK.  I was thinking about the vector.  I see your point.

Tell me though, if a controller tells you to circumnavigate the airspace, what does that mean exactly?  In this case, does that mean that he could (absent the direction about the lake) fly at 500 feet and avoid the inner ring or must the pilot be outside of the entire ring?  I'm not trying to find fault with the controller as he clearly did a good job, I'm just confused by what he meant with that instruction.

-Ben
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2007, 04:04:01 PM »

Tell me though, if a controller tells you to circumnavigate the airspace, what does that mean exactly?  In this case, does that mean that he could (absent the direction about the lake) fly at 500 feet and avoid the inner ring or must the pilot be outside of the entire ring? 

The pilot must avoid the airspace, which means that if the airspace of the inner ring starts at ground level and goes to 3,000, then the pilot could overfly the airspace at 3,100 and be outside the airspace (however, in this particular case, Orlando class B starts at 3,001 feet so a clearance from that controller would be required - in the US and in most cases class C airspace does not have a class B right above it).

If the outer ring started at 1,300 feet and went to 3,000 feet, flying under this airspace at 500 feet complies with the "circumnavigate" and "remain clear of class C" instructions.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Ben Diss
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« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2007, 09:12:02 PM »

Wow.  Didn't realize there was a Class B right above the Orlando Class C.  I fly in the NYC area so I'm familiar with Class B protocol.  I've never heard the phrase "circumnavigate" before so it confused me.

Looking at the sectional on page one of this thread I don't understand what the seaplane pilot was thinking.  He keeps talking about the eastern vs. western shore of the lake yet either way he's violated their airspace.  Being that there was an emergency in progress, I'm surprised they didn't violate him.  I'll bet you a dozen donuts he would have been if that would have happened up here.

-Ben
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kcabpilot
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« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2007, 01:35:57 PM »

For the record, no airspace was 'violated' because an acknowledgement of your transmission is clearance to enter class C. Yes, the controller asked him to 'circumnavigate' and as one other poster asked - what exactly does that mean? It's not entirely clear, the controller knew the exact position of the seaplane at all times, asked him to turn east and he complied. The only real issue here is a bit of complaining over the airwaves - nothing more, nothing less.
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seagull
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« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2007, 01:47:47 PM »

YWG Tower...I agree.  From a perspective of heavy traffic or dealing with an emergency.  I would have squashed this guy.  Required transmissions on the radio...comments on the phone.

ATC'r
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2007, 01:52:46 PM »

For the record, no airspace was 'violated' because an acknowledgement of your transmission is clearance to enter class C. Yes, the controller asked him to 'circumnavigate' and as one other poster asked - what exactly does that mean?

ยง 91.123   Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions, Paragraph B reads:

Quote
(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

The pilot was asked to circumnavigate the airspace, as in go around it.  If I were told to circumnavigate the class C airspace and I were approaching the inner ring as this pilot was, I would take that to mean fly around the inner ring.  It is a pretty straight-forward instruction.

And while you are correct that callsign acknowledgement is all that is needed to enter class C airspace, that acceptance would be trumped by any ATC instruction that followed the callsign, as in "Seaplane XXX, circumnavigate the class C," or even better, "Seaplane XXX, remain clear of class Charlie airspace."

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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
kcabpilot
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« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2007, 02:15:01 PM »

Neither of those instructions were given. The controller said 'we're gonna' have to ask you to circumnavigate at this time' and there indeed was a question as to what that meant. 'Sterilize the airspace' is also not am implicit instruction to remain clear of Class C.

I think my first assesment was correct. You guys are getting all wound up over nothing.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2007, 03:42:11 PM »

Neither of those instructions were given. The controller said 'we're gonna' have to ask you to circumnavigate at this time' and there indeed was a question as to what that meant.

And?   Don't forget the rest:   The pilot acknowledged that instruction (which normally means the pilot fully understood it), gave his plan, and the controller then replied, "As long as you go around our airspace, that'll be fine."  When the pilot came back with a "You mean I can't even come into your class C?" the controller countered, "Circumnavigate around Lake Jessup and east of the river, will be fine, at or below 500 feet."

Now, could the controller have been more clear had he used better phraseology, as in "Remain clear of class C?"  Sure, but there was no evidence in the clip that your pilot buddy was confused about what the controller needed, and the excess banter between the two of them presented a clear picture (at least to this low-time 1,200 hr pilot) of the requirement.

Furthermore, upon listening to this another time, it is apparent to me that your buddy was attempting to cut the corner back to the north well early of where the controller wanted him, as evidenced by the continual request by the controller to push him further east.  In looking at the sectional chart, you will see that all but the eastern-most sliver of the lake is inside the class C inner ring and your buddy kept stating that he was over the water, which implies that he was well inside class C even though the controller stated, "as long as you go around our airspace, you'll be fine." 

I think my first assesment was correct. You guys are getting all wound up over nothing.

And you are attempting to spin this incident in favor of your friend when clearly mistakes were made by him.   In the end, what was he trying to protect?  A $2.50 fuel savings?   Please.

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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Biff
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« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2007, 04:01:35 PM »

I don't know if 'circumnavigate' is approved phraseology (any controllers out there still reading this thread?), but any experienced pilot should know what it means.
Regardless, his instruction to stay "east of the river" was unambiguous. 

I don't think his disregard of the instructions were nearly as big a deal as his attempts to argue over the freq.
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