Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 20, 2014, 04:08:01 AM
Home Help Login Register      
News: LiveATC.net Flyers Released!  Please click here to download & print a copy and be sure to post at an airport near you!


+  LiveATC Discussion Forums
|-+  Air Traffic Monitoring
| |-+  Aviation Audio Clips (Moderators: dave, RonR)
| | |-+  AFR 7 Super vs. Comair 553 at KJFK
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] Go Down Print
Author Topic: AFR 7 Super vs. Comair 553 at KJFK  (Read 20480 times)
StrongDreams
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 40


« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2011, 02:58:32 PM »

Looks to me like the video was sped up, making it difficult to estimate the speed of the plane.

There are red flashing lights on both planes (sorry, don't know the technical terms).  Do they flash at a known frequency, and if so, can someone calculate the actual speeds and post a slowed-down video?
Logged
stan1541
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2011, 03:40:22 PM »


The aircraft was not pushed back.  When we are pushed out of the horseshoe, they turn us around so we are facing west towards Alpha on Mike.  This aircraft was inbound, and we are not permitted to enter the ramp too far without a marshaller and wing walkers.

Thank you, for the clarification.

But, assuming he (Comair) was not clear of the threshold, which the photos show (and i know we can't trust those), whose responsibility is it? I'm just a PP but my instruction taught me that you hold short of thresholds and clear them completely before stopping on the other side.
Logged
JetScan1
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 658


« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2011, 03:56:46 PM »

Quote
The crew did say COM553, but I believe they might have been in error.  They were probably looking at their DSL and 6553 was the next flight they were to operate.

The accident happened around 20:05-20:10 and looking again I see flight 553 wasn't sked to depart until 21:00, so most likely that it wasn't 553 after all. Your callsign mixup theory would explain it.
Logged
cessna157
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 708



WWW
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2011, 04:46:31 PM »

Quote
The crew did say COM553, but I believe they might have been in error.  They were probably looking at their DSL and 6553 was the next flight they were to operate.
The accident happened around 20:05-20:10 and looking again I see flight 553 wasn't sked to depart until 21:00, so most likely that it wasn't 553 after all. Your callsign mixup theory would explain it.
Okay, that helps, I did not know what time the incident occurred.  6293 is showing an in-time of 20:10, so that makes sense.
The aircraft was not pushed back.  When we are pushed out of the horseshoe, they turn us around so we are facing west towards Alpha on Mike.  This aircraft was inbound, and we are not permitted to enter the ramp too far without a marshaller and wing walkers.
Thank you, for the clarification.
But, assuming he (Comair) was not clear of the threshold, which the photos show (and i know we can't trust those), whose responsibility is it? I'm just a PP but my instruction taught me that you hold short of thresholds and clear them completely before stopping on the other side.

Just to clarify, they were not at the runway threshold.  This was simply the intersection of Alpha and Mike.  They may not have been completely clear of the movement area, but that isn’t really the issue.  Taxiway turn-ins routinely get clogged (not just at JFK, anywhere)
Any aircraft that is moving is required to give way to another aircraft or something else that is stationary.  Let’s use an extreme obviously exaggerated example: taxiing in MIA there are light poles out on the ramp area.  Are you responsible for going around them?
The crew of the aircraft is responsible for ensuring their aircraft will not cause harm or damage to people or objects.  Could the Comair have pulled up a little farther to let the big fat ‘bus go by?  Sure, it would have been courteous, but also they are pushing the limits of their clearance (not permitted to enter the ramp too far without ground crew guidance)

Looks to me like the video was sped up, making it difficult to estimate the speed of the plane.
There are red flashing lights on both planes (sorry, don't know the technical terms).  Do they flash at a known frequency, and if so, can someone calculate the actual speeds and post a slowed-down video?

The video was indeed sped up (judged by how fast the ramp agent ran at the time of collision).  While it would be nice to be able to estimate the speed by the beacon lights on the CRJ (which flash at regular intervals, top/bottom/top), the nature of camera shutters do not have the ability to capture strobes real well.  You might be able to notice this just by how irregular the CRJ’s strobes appear.
Logged

CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
cessna157
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 708



WWW
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2011, 04:51:32 PM »

Some audio has been released from on-site:      rolleyes

Logged

CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
englishpilot
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 117



« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2011, 05:12:56 PM »

Just watching the video again, that green nav light went straight out.
Logged

I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe.
joeyb747
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1583


Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2011, 05:44:57 PM »

Just watching the video again, that green nav light went straight out.

Green? Did you mean red?

The Super was moving right to left in the video, and struck the Commair with the left (Port side) wing.



This vid shows the damage to the Port side wing tip on the A380 in the last couple seconds of the vid as the aircraft taxis into the gate...

« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 05:47:41 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

Aircraft Mechanic
stan1541
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2011, 07:11:37 PM »


Just to clarify, they were not at the runway threshold.  This was simply the intersection of Alpha and Mike.  They may not have been completely clear of the movement area, but that isn’t really the issue.  Taxiway turn-ins routinely get clogged (not just at JFK, anywhere)
Any aircraft that is moving is required to give way to another aircraft or something else that is stationary.  Let’s use an extreme obviously exaggerated example: taxiing in MIA there are light poles out on the ramp area.  Are you responsible for going around them?
The crew of the aircraft is responsible for ensuring their aircraft will not cause harm or damage to people or objects.  Could the Comair have pulled up a little farther to let the big fat ‘bus go by?  Sure, it would have been courteous, but also they are pushing the limits of their clearance (not permitted to enter the ramp too far without ground crew guidance)

Thanks, I learned a lot, which is why I asked the question. I'd rather learn here than out on a taxi way getting run over by a jet in my 172sp!
Logged
cptbrw
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 142


« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2011, 07:14:12 PM »

Some good shots of the damage to both aircraft.

http://nycaviation.com/2011/04/damage-photos-of-smashed-up-air-france-a380/
Logged
MikeNYC
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 104



« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2011, 12:28:48 AM »

Looks to me like the video was sped up, making it difficult to estimate the speed of the plane.

There are red flashing lights on both planes (sorry, don't know the technical terms).  Do they flash at a known frequency, and if so, can someone calculate the actual speeds and post a slowed-down video?

From PPRuNe:

Quote
The anti-collision lights on the CRJ (upper and lower fuselage) are Goodrich 2LA 002 760-70 with 8ES 002 769-03 power supply. This has a flash rate of 45 fpm (alternating top bottom, so each lamp is effectively 22.5 fpm).

The first flash I clearly see on the top occurs at 0.05 secs, the second top flash at 0.08, or roughly 20 fpm... given the inaccuracy of the timing (lack of precision), that puts it very close to the stated 22.5 fpm for each beacon.

I think you will find this is real time.
Logged

Feed Provider Of:
NYC Helicopter Class B/Ops
KEWR Tower (TCA/Helicopters)
NYC Helicopter CTAF
KLGA NY Approach (HAARP/Final/Dep)
KTEB Del/Gnd/Tower
NYC MilAir/MISC
flyflyfly
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 107



« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2011, 02:48:07 AM »

LiveATC edit acknowledged in AP video here: .

So, which journalist did the transcription of the LiveATC recording?
"Super 8380 I understand he belives he hit the regional jet"
Associated Press #fail!
Ahahaha...  grin
Logged
aevins
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 253



« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2011, 07:57:34 AM »

NTSB has confirmed that this was Comair flight 293, an inbound.
Logged
767-201ER
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3


« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2011, 08:40:47 PM »

Amazing that AF had to shut down the engines. With CFR equipment and personel - along with the deplane Comair pax - milling around the taxiway, they should have shut down on their own!
Logged
englishpilot
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 117



« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2011, 08:51:35 PM »

Amazing that AF had to shut down the engines. With CFR equipment and personel - along with the deplane Comair pax - milling around the taxiway, they should have shut down on their own!

Yeah, they seemed surprised.  It wasn't like they were going to Paris that night.
Logged

I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe.
alltheway
Guest
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2011, 02:57:36 PM »

Looks to me like the video was sped up, making it difficult to estimate the speed of the plane.

There are red flashing lights on both planes (sorry, don't know the technical terms).  Do they flash at a known frequency, and if so, can someone calculate the actual speeds and post a slowed-down video?

Strobe lights are white flashing - Rotation beacon is mounted at the fuselage not the wing and the NAV(igation) light left is red and right is green.

And even if the video is sped up, the Air France is going like a freight train !

Furthermore most accidents happen while landing or definitely on the ground, once more proof of that  evil
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!