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Author Topic: AFR 7 Super vs. Comair 553 at KJFK  (Read 28311 times)
cptbrw
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« on: April 11, 2011, 09:53:37 PM »

Sounds like AFR 7 Super clipped Comair 553 around the intersection of Taxiways Alpha and Mike around 8:05PM EDT.  Didn't sound like there were any injuries although the Comair did perform an emergency evacuation.  Initial reports are of minor damage to both aircraft.

Attached clip of JFK Ground edited to contain only relevant transmissions.  It's a bit choppy because of the two channels covered and also sounds like the Comair was on 1 ground freq. while the Air France was on the other.

* AFR007 vs COM553 041111.mp3 (301.8 KB - downloaded 9149 times.)
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Tex24Whiskey
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 12:42:19 AM »

Somebody got home video of it... OUCH!  shocked Looks like the pax got a heck of a jolt.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Two-Planes-Collide-on-Ground-at-JFK-119666334.html
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bienville
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 02:10:23 AM »

heh, Sounds like the same controller who handled the Piper beach boy idiot. That guy's had a long week.
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englishpilot
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2011, 08:50:52 AM »

Just watched the video.

A couple of observations from this single engine private pilot wink

1)  The AF crew seemed a little unsure over the radio
2)  That being the case they looked like they were taxiing VERY quickly by any standards, especially in the vicinity of other planes. 

Interested to see how this develops.
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rekno13
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2011, 11:37:37 AM »

That is why one should always keep their seat belts on after landing. That is some pretty dramatic footage.

The Comair pilot sounded so calm I did not think the impact was so bad for him. Seeing the video changed that idea.
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englishpilot
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 11:46:29 AM »

Yeah, especially when you consider the fact that due to the fact that they were further from the pivot point being the wheels they would have travelled further and faster than those behind.
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rbnn
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2011, 12:09:23 PM »

LiveATC edit acknowledged in AP video here: .
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grubby
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2011, 12:24:51 PM »

Is this last night? Isn't the Comair flight from last night Comair Flight 6293 and not 553?
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stan1541
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2011, 01:17:49 PM »

If you look at the photos, the back end of the Comair is well past the threshold. This, in my uneducated opinion, will be the fault of the ground crew for pushing the Comair out into the taxiway. The Air France, if on the taxiway and on the center line, should not have any interference with aircraft or ground crew's.
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JetScan1
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2011, 01:25:11 PM »

Quote
Isn't the Comair flight from last night Comair Flight 6293 and not 553?

Everyone in the media so far has been reporting it as Comair 6293 arriving from Boston, the source apparently a Delta spokesperson. This appears to be an error. Listening to the tape it was clearly Comair flight 553. This flight originates in JFK and operates to STL, the ATC callsign would be "Comair 553", the Delta codeshare flight number is 6553 which showed "cancelled" on Delta's website on April 11th.
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rbnn
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2011, 02:35:31 PM »

Just watched the video.


2)   they looked like they were taxiing VERY quickly by any standards, especially in the vicinity of other planes. 



Looks to me like the video was sped up, making it difficult to estimate the speed of the plane.
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cessna157
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2011, 02:36:28 PM »

If you look at the photos, the back end of the Comair is well past the threshold. This, in my uneducated opinion, will be the fault of the ground crew for pushing the Comair out into the taxiway. The Air France, if on the taxiway and on the center line, should not have any interference with aircraft or ground crew's.

The aircraft was not pushed back.  When we are pushed out of the horseshoe, they turn us around so we are facing west towards Alpha on Mike.  This aircraft was inbound, and we are not permitted to enter the ramp too far without a marshaller and wing walkers.

Quote
Isn't the Comair flight from last night Comair Flight 6293 and not 553?

Everyone in the media so far has been reporting it as Comair 6293 arriving from Boston, the source apparently a Delta spokesperson. This appears to be an error. Listening to the tape it was clearly Comair flight 553. This flight originates in JFK and operates to STL, the ATC callsign would be "Comair 553", the Delta codeshare flight number is 6553 which showed "cancelled" on Delta's website on April 11th.

The crew did say COM553, but I believe they might have been in error.  They were probably looking at their DSL and 6553 was the next flight they were to operate.  In a crazy experience like this, confusion is bound to be present.  Judging by the aircraft's position (facing inbound) the flight was pulling into the ramp, and not a departure.  Yes, I'm armchair quarterbacking this, but it's just my observation.
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cessna157
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2011, 02:38:03 PM »

Just watched the video.

2)   they looked like they were taxiing VERY quickly by any standards, especially in the vicinity of other planes. 


Looks to me like the video was sped up, making it difficult to estimate the speed of the plane.

Yes, either this video has been sped up, or Delta has Usain Bolt working the ramp in JFK (watch the speed at which the ramp agent runs at the time of collision).
Having operated many many flights out of this very ramp, I can say for a fact that JFK ramp agents do not operate with any speede whatsoever
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cessna157
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2011, 02:39:14 PM »

It hurts my heart when I see this picture, then look at my logbook and see this very airplane in there.  Not sure this plane will be salvagable.



* 700 JFK collision.jpg (50.65 KB, 537x720 - viewed 472 times.)
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englishpilot
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2011, 02:44:31 PM »

Air France have lost Concorde, A320, A330, A340 and have now given the A380 a good wack.
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StrongDreams
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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2011, 02:58:32 PM »

Looks to me like the video was sped up, making it difficult to estimate the speed of the plane.

There are red flashing lights on both planes (sorry, don't know the technical terms).  Do they flash at a known frequency, and if so, can someone calculate the actual speeds and post a slowed-down video?
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stan1541
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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2011, 03:40:22 PM »


The aircraft was not pushed back.  When we are pushed out of the horseshoe, they turn us around so we are facing west towards Alpha on Mike.  This aircraft was inbound, and we are not permitted to enter the ramp too far without a marshaller and wing walkers.

Thank you, for the clarification.

But, assuming he (Comair) was not clear of the threshold, which the photos show (and i know we can't trust those), whose responsibility is it? I'm just a PP but my instruction taught me that you hold short of thresholds and clear them completely before stopping on the other side.
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JetScan1
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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2011, 03:56:46 PM »

Quote
The crew did say COM553, but I believe they might have been in error.  They were probably looking at their DSL and 6553 was the next flight they were to operate.

The accident happened around 20:05-20:10 and looking again I see flight 553 wasn't sked to depart until 21:00, so most likely that it wasn't 553 after all. Your callsign mixup theory would explain it.
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cessna157
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2011, 04:46:31 PM »

Quote
The crew did say COM553, but I believe they might have been in error.  They were probably looking at their DSL and 6553 was the next flight they were to operate.
The accident happened around 20:05-20:10 and looking again I see flight 553 wasn't sked to depart until 21:00, so most likely that it wasn't 553 after all. Your callsign mixup theory would explain it.
Okay, that helps, I did not know what time the incident occurred.  6293 is showing an in-time of 20:10, so that makes sense.
The aircraft was not pushed back.  When we are pushed out of the horseshoe, they turn us around so we are facing west towards Alpha on Mike.  This aircraft was inbound, and we are not permitted to enter the ramp too far without a marshaller and wing walkers.
Thank you, for the clarification.
But, assuming he (Comair) was not clear of the threshold, which the photos show (and i know we can't trust those), whose responsibility is it? I'm just a PP but my instruction taught me that you hold short of thresholds and clear them completely before stopping on the other side.

Just to clarify, they were not at the runway threshold.  This was simply the intersection of Alpha and Mike.  They may not have been completely clear of the movement area, but that isn’t really the issue.  Taxiway turn-ins routinely get clogged (not just at JFK, anywhere)
Any aircraft that is moving is required to give way to another aircraft or something else that is stationary.  Let’s use an extreme obviously exaggerated example: taxiing in MIA there are light poles out on the ramp area.  Are you responsible for going around them?
The crew of the aircraft is responsible for ensuring their aircraft will not cause harm or damage to people or objects.  Could the Comair have pulled up a little farther to let the big fat ‘bus go by?  Sure, it would have been courteous, but also they are pushing the limits of their clearance (not permitted to enter the ramp too far without ground crew guidance)

Looks to me like the video was sped up, making it difficult to estimate the speed of the plane.
There are red flashing lights on both planes (sorry, don't know the technical terms).  Do they flash at a known frequency, and if so, can someone calculate the actual speeds and post a slowed-down video?

The video was indeed sped up (judged by how fast the ramp agent ran at the time of collision).  While it would be nice to be able to estimate the speed by the beacon lights on the CRJ (which flash at regular intervals, top/bottom/top), the nature of camera shutters do not have the ability to capture strobes real well.  You might be able to notice this just by how irregular the CRJ’s strobes appear.
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cessna157
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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2011, 04:51:32 PM »

Some audio has been released from on-site:      rolleyes

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englishpilot
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« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2011, 05:12:56 PM »

Just watching the video again, that green nav light went straight out.
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joeyb747
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2011, 05:44:57 PM »

Just watching the video again, that green nav light went straight out.

Green? Did you mean red?

The Super was moving right to left in the video, and struck the Commair with the left (Port side) wing.



This vid shows the damage to the Port side wing tip on the A380 in the last couple seconds of the vid as the aircraft taxis into the gate...

« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 05:47:41 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

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stan1541
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2011, 07:11:37 PM »


Just to clarify, they were not at the runway threshold.  This was simply the intersection of Alpha and Mike.  They may not have been completely clear of the movement area, but that isn’t really the issue.  Taxiway turn-ins routinely get clogged (not just at JFK, anywhere)
Any aircraft that is moving is required to give way to another aircraft or something else that is stationary.  Let’s use an extreme obviously exaggerated example: taxiing in MIA there are light poles out on the ramp area.  Are you responsible for going around them?
The crew of the aircraft is responsible for ensuring their aircraft will not cause harm or damage to people or objects.  Could the Comair have pulled up a little farther to let the big fat ‘bus go by?  Sure, it would have been courteous, but also they are pushing the limits of their clearance (not permitted to enter the ramp too far without ground crew guidance)

Thanks, I learned a lot, which is why I asked the question. I'd rather learn here than out on a taxi way getting run over by a jet in my 172sp!
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cptbrw
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2011, 07:14:12 PM »

Some good shots of the damage to both aircraft.

http://nycaviation.com/2011/04/damage-photos-of-smashed-up-air-france-a380/
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MikeNYC
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« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2011, 12:28:48 AM »

Looks to me like the video was sped up, making it difficult to estimate the speed of the plane.

There are red flashing lights on both planes (sorry, don't know the technical terms).  Do they flash at a known frequency, and if so, can someone calculate the actual speeds and post a slowed-down video?

From PPRuNe:

Quote
The anti-collision lights on the CRJ (upper and lower fuselage) are Goodrich 2LA 002 760-70 with 8ES 002 769-03 power supply. This has a flash rate of 45 fpm (alternating top bottom, so each lamp is effectively 22.5 fpm).

The first flash I clearly see on the top occurs at 0.05 secs, the second top flash at 0.08, or roughly 20 fpm... given the inaccuracy of the timing (lack of precision), that puts it very close to the stated 22.5 fpm for each beacon.

I think you will find this is real time.
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