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Author Topic: AFR6419 not happy with Boston Center  (Read 13508 times)
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Posts: 23

« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2009, 08:59:50 PM »

I went back and listened to the clip again,the controller could have said descend to fl330 for opposite direction traffic.The AF pilot had every right to question atc,since he was not initially given a reason for the decent after the climb.In my flying and listening on here you hear controllers give reasons all the time,position and hold,traffic crossing down field,fly heading 085 short vector through the loc for spacing are just a couple.
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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2009, 12:48:33 AM »

Since we're all adding our two cents. I'll throw mine in there as a controller. I don't the AF pilot was out of line. Having to descend after already being given a climb is probably big money in fuel especially when it comes to tran-oceanic flights. From the controllers perspective: I know from personal experience controlling flights from all different language backgrounds that I will often "chunk" my transmissions when I know I'm dealing with a non-native English speaker. Transmissions that I would normally combine. This helps get the important information across with less opportunity for confusion and misunderstanding. Also while I find it to be beneficial to keep give pilots reasons when doing things out of the ordinary a reason for climb/decent is not required.

Yesterday I couldn't spell air traffic controller. Today I R one.
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Posts: 55

« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2009, 10:07:16 PM »

This happens all the time with trans atlantic flights.  The Boston controllers in this case are separating just for basic radar, they may try to set up Moncton with some sort of help for the non-radar separation that will be required but their setup may not fit into the the full scheme of things down the line.  Transitioning from radar separation to non-radar means going from 5 miles to 10 minutes of separation at altitude.  So the Boston controllers likely climbed the Air France flight, then Moncton got them, went to coordinate them into non-radar, found out their altitude was not going to work, and had to descend them for traffic.  This happens every night for a lot of planes going out over the ocean.  Not everyone can get their altitudes and they need to descend or climb to an altitude that may not be optimal for fuel consumption. 

Many of times pilots complain about it, delay their descents and start asking questions as if "XXXX descend and maintain FL330" is not an ATC clearance.  It is, do it, then ask questions.  They can get all pissy about it but we controllers don't make the rules we just separate traffic using them, and he was apparently a little late to the show and missed out on getting his altitude.  Typically as the bunch that is using up the higher altitude goes across they will all ask for higher and by the end of the flight everyone will gain 3-4,000ft on the way across. 
Silly Sod
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Posts: 5

« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2009, 01:18:04 PM »

Giving D-sense is part of the game.  Just easier to do when it's AF.  grin
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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2009, 11:12:08 AM »

Moncton centre is mostly a radar environment. 

For RVSM airspace:

Evening Moncton centre structures airspace for the eastbound flow, thus FL340 & FL360 are actually used for eastbound flights. (Allowing FL300, 320, 380, & 400 the only west bound levels)

Daytime Moncton centre structures the other way for aircraft coming off the ocean (westbound flow).  This was the case with AFR in this recording.  FL350 & FL390 are used as westbound levels.  (Allowing FL290, 310, 330, 370 & 410 as eastbound levels)

All this to accommodate the large volume of easterly or westerly traffic at these peak times. 

Boston centre is aware of this structure however sometimes they will move an aircraft into a level against the structure to separate traffic within their airspace.  Unfortunately when this happens close to the Moncton boundary they have to be moved again once in Moncton airspace.  It was the one move shortly after the other that caused the AFR reaction.  The Moncton controller reacted as such because they structure airspace every day.  It's nothing new & unsafe for the AFR to be there. 

It's all a bit unusual but interesting.  Thanks. 
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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2009, 05:18:48 PM »

Thanks for the great explanation.  Listening to the feed on a regular basis, you can really get a sense for this.
Please feel free to enlighten us some more when you have a chance.

Dan CZQM/CYQM Feeder

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