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Author Topic: Air Canada 485 Out Of Comm  (Read 4001 times)
joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« on: February 23, 2010, 09:01:11 PM »

I pieced together what I could of the audio. The CYYZ scanner scans TWR/DEP/APP, so I only got bits and pieces...

At the bottom is a pic of Airbus 321-211 C-GJWO / 460 (cn 1811).

"An Air Canada Airbus A321-200, registration C-GJWO performing flight AC-485 from Montreal,QC to Toronto Pearson,ON (Canada), was on approach to Toronto and talking normally to approach control, who cleared the flight for the ILS approach runway 05. The crew however did not report to tower, who did not issue a landing clearance, numerous attempts by tower to contact the crew went without reply. The aircraft touched down safely without landing clearance, the crew contacted ground upon vacating the runway."

From:

http://avherald.com/h?article=427b9ef7&opt=1
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speedotann
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 09:24:45 PM »

They are gonna get a talking to... There was a similar clip on here in 2009 were an AA Jet landed at LAX without landing clearance... I do not get how these guys can all of the sudden think it is OK to go ahead and land anyway. Good one Joey

B
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Cessna 152

ATC- N272** expedite departure Please.

ME- I am peddling as fast as I can!!
bcradio
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 10:01:55 PM »

What you don't get is this:

1.  You cannot sit in judgement of a flight crew's action by listening to bits and pieces of recorded audio.  You do not have enough information!

2.  You may not have an understanding of lost comms rules and procedures.  Try this:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/publications/en/tp14371/pdf/hr/tp14371e.pdf for a beginning.



They are gonna get a talking to... There was a similar clip on here in 2009 were an AA Jet landed at LAX without landing clearance... I do not get how these guys can all of the sudden think it is OK to go ahead and land anyway. Good one Joey
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djmodifyd
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 10:02:48 PM »

ever think of a light gun?
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zacek
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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010, 11:07:54 PM »

bcradio,

I think "speedotann" has made a reasonable assumption that the aircraft landed without clearance, as the original post references an article from AvHerald stating that the aircraft landed without clearance.  The aircraft was not NORDO, as it acknowledged a frequency change to the tower frequency and communicated with ground.  For whatever reason, they did not communicate with the tower.  As there is no mention of an emergency (the only allowable reason to land without clearance) with the ground controller, we can assume that they did not, in fact, land the aircraft within regulations.  (Had a light gun been used, the aircraft would have landed with a clearance and there would be no article.)

You suggest a lack of understanding of NORDO procedures, but the document that you yourself direct us to read is very clear:

4.4.3: Landing Clearance
At controlled airports, a pilot must obtain landing clearance prior to landing. Normally, the airport controller will initiate landing clearance without having first received the request from the aircraft; however, should this not occur, the onus remains upon the pilot to request such clearance in sufficient time to accommodate the operating characteristics of the aircraft being flown. NORDO and RONLY aircraft shall be considered as intending to land when they join and conform to the traffic circuit. Landing clearance will normally be given when an aircraft is on final approach. If landing clearance is not received, the pilot shall, except in case of emergency, pull up and make another circuit.

4.4.5: Arrival Procedures – NORDO Aircraft
Before operating into a controlled aerodrome, pilots shall contact the control tower, inform the tower of their intentions and make arrangements for clearance through visual signals.

People make mistakes.  There is every indication that these pilots made a mistake, either in the operation of their functional radio, or their improper landing procedure with a failed radio.  Yes.  They will get a "talking to"

Most importantly, this serves as a good reminder to all of us that 1000 safe landings doesn't make the 1001st automatically safe.  Little mistakes can add up to big, bad results.  This forum is, among other things, a place to learn from mistakes lest we don't put an aircraft down on top of another aircraft.
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bcradio
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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 11:52:31 PM »

Regarding comm failure, check out the section on IFR comm failures....  Or go deeper and find some IFR texts that describe situations in detail.

I guess my point is that the incident happened yesterday and an investigation is beginning.  Saying that the crew is "going to get a talking to" is assuming that the crew is automatically at fault.   Read some initial CADORS reports and compare them with final reports, and you'll see there is often a major difference.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy listening to the clips on this site.  I find them informative, entertaining and often fun.  What "Grinds my Gears" is all the Monday morning quarterbacking that goes on here.  Too often people jump to conclusions with very little information, and can start flinging blame and barbs around that I find can approach slander or libel. 

I have a feeling that it's this sort of behaviour that will lead to problems for this site and it's posters.








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speedotann
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2010, 12:00:19 AM »

They will get a talking to.. No matter who's fault it was... As for the AA jet, after they landed they acknowledged the tower that they indeed landed without clearance..... That's why I said what I said.... Sorry if I offended anyone.

B
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Cessna 152

ATC- N272** expedite departure Please.

ME- I am peddling as fast as I can!!
bcradio
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2010, 12:01:20 AM »

No worries mate!
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eppy
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 02:53:35 PM »

John Baird, (Canadian Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities) has assured the flight crew that he will do everything to assure that no further action will be taken in respect of this matter. Whilst there is a clear separation between political and regulatory authority, the Minister has requested that Transport Canada and The Canadian Air Transport Security Authority take into consideration the exemplary history of the crew and reputation of Air Canada as a tier 1 airline and National carrier  in respect of this matter. (Note: not my opinion - I'm Australian and have absolutely no interest in Canadian aviation or related politics!)  rolleyes


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