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Author Topic: Air France 346 goes off the runway at Montreal  (Read 10867 times)
jahulian
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« on: August 27, 2008, 06:03:48 PM »

Air France 346 had a brake problem and went off the runway, there were no injuries.  This happened yesterday (the 26th)

Here's the audio from it.  Sorry for all of you who don't understand french...
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bogman
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2008, 08:18:21 PM »

Hey Jahulian,

Any chance you could translate, I would like to know what was said even just the jist of it would be fine. grin grin grin
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cessna157
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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2008, 11:04:50 AM »

Here's a rough estimate of the transmission:

Tower, we're stuck.
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jahulian
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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2008, 07:55:00 PM »

TWR: Air France 346 heavy taxi bravo 2 hold short of runway 28, stay on my frequency.

AFR346: Montreal, Air France 346 heavy, uhh we just went off the runway, uhh engines at idle, and proceeding (not sure) to secure the aircraft.

TWR: Westjet 204, pull up, climb runway heading maintain 3000, traffic on the runway.

WJA204: pull up runway heading maintain 3000, Westjet 204.

TWR: Air France 346, the vehicles are on the way.

AFR346: Roger.

TWR: Air France 345, taxi on the runway and exit on echo

AFR345: taxiing on the runway and exiting on echo, Air France 345

AFR346: Ummm, do you see smoke around the aircraft for Air France 346 heavy?

TWR: Negative.

AFR346: Roger.

ACA995: Tower for Air Canada 995, we checked and there’s no smoke around the Air France 747.

AFR346: Roger.

TWR: Westjet 204 contact departures now 124.65.

WJA204: 24.65 Westjet 204.

TWR: …contact ground now 121.9.

AFR345: 121.9, Air France 345.

TWR: Air France 346 contact ground 121.9 (With an angry voice).

AFR346 : 121.9, Air France 346.
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tyketto
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« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2008, 08:30:14 PM »

Pull up = Canadian for "Go Around"?

BL.
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cessna157
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2008, 08:47:40 PM »

I was thinking the same thing here.

I guess its just training kicking in, but when I hear the phrase "pull up" I'm going to interpret it as an immdiate emergency situation, slam the thrust levers full forward, and pull on the yoke as hard as I can.  EGPWS says "Pull up!", a controller should say "go around" or "cancel approach/landing clearance"

Is this just a canadian thing?
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Hollis
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 09:25:36 PM »

Depends on where you are on final. If you're close in, a 'pull up' would indicate more urgency than a 'go around'.
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cessna157
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« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 09:49:19 PM »

Except that is an interpretation/opinion.  The FAA rarely has any rules that are open to interpretation (and most of those that do fall into the grey area do so for a reason).

Keep in mind, I am talking about the U.S. NAS only here.  I am not sure if "pull up" is canadian for "go around"

If an controller were to tell me to "pull up" that is non-standard phraseology.  Non-standard phraseology usually comes into play into 2 areas (which ironically fall at complete opposite ends of the spectrum): a very relaxed situation that has a lot of leniency (when deviating around weather a controller says "Go ahead and maneuver however you need to to get around or through the weather and let me know what you need") or an immediate/urgent situation when standard phraseology might just not get the point accross (think back to the guy who was screaming on an FSS freq and the briefer talked him through a spin recovery).

As I see it, it doesn't matter whether I'm on a 5 mile final at 1000' or over the MM at 200', if a controller tells me to "go around" then it is as simple as that, I go around.  But if the controller jumps on and says "Pull up!" I'm going to get the feeling that my life is in imminent danger (there is an aircraft below me).

Sorry to drag this topic....off topic.
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dawgweed
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2008, 12:15:17 PM »

It is the Canadian version of "Go Around"


344.11
Instruct the aircraft to pull-up if necessary.
(P)
344.11 Phraseology:
PULL-UP AND GO AROUND, (reason).
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Hollis
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2008, 04:14:25 PM »

Old Canadian CAR definition of 'Go around'...
"This command is given if there is an aircraft still on the runway".

I believe the military uses 'pull up...', or used to. As when an aircraft is otherwise likely to collide with something, or the gear is still up, or a large flock of birds just got in the way.
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Adrian8
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2008, 05:33:48 PM »

As stated, "pull up and go around" is the correct phraseology here, not just "pull up".
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2008, 09:17:08 PM »

As stated, "pull up and go around" is the correct phraseology here, not just "pull up".

I am happy to read Canadian ATC includes the action the pilot needs to properly execute a go-around.  Had they not included that, I am sure there would have been at least one pilot who forgot to pull-up.  smiley  smiley
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
cessna157
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2008, 09:23:24 PM »

I am happy to read Canadian ATC includes the action the pilot needs to properly execute a go-around.  Had they not included that, I am sure there would have been at least one pilot who forgot to pull-up.  smiley  smiley

Yeah, its those crazy Canadians.  You gotta watch out for them.

Now before we start WW6, I'm kidding!
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Hollis
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2008, 11:00:10 PM »

Now that we're getting humorous...
If I were told to 'pull up', I would take that to mean 'increase altitude immediately'.
If I were told to 'go around', I might just do a low pass on the way.
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CYUL
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2008, 08:57:37 PM »

Pictures of the incident can be found here:

These were taken by spotters and airport workers that day.

Spotter pics:

http://www.yulaviation.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=15466

Pics from the runway:

http://www.yulaviation.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=15462&page=6


YulAviation is probably one of the best forums for anything related to airport operations in Montreal

Enjoy

CYUL
« Last Edit: August 30, 2008, 09:23:32 PM by CYUL » Logged

Montreal, PQ Canada
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