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Author Topic: Air Transat panic in the cockpit  (Read 44297 times)
Pro2004
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« on: March 14, 2008, 07:09:00 PM »

Listen to this pumping the volume up to maximum.  You will hear at 11:35 the crew of an Air Transat A-310 in panic after declaring an emergency following a loss of altitude and airspeed indication.  On local radio station broadcasted it this week but one before had heard about it.  It's all in french, but panic is the same in english or in french.  http://archive-server.liveatc.net/cyqb/CYQB-Mar-05-2008-1930Z.mp3

A CADORS has been issued by TC first confirming the crew side, but a week later saying it was a windshear that induced the loss of 1700ft from 3000ft to 1300ft....  No other aircraft reported such windshield in that period
 
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cessna157
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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2008, 08:50:29 PM »

I'm not hearing any sound at all through the entire clip.  Anyone else?
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
cessna157
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2008, 08:54:32 PM »

Nevermind, just had poor sound quality in the clip.

This clip reminds me of just one of the many reasons I really hate flying in Canadian airspace.  ICAO regulations require air traffic communications to be in English.  Granted, as an American carrier, when we fly in Canadian airspace, the controllers all speak English to us.  But when you have 10 airplanes all on the same frequency, 8 speaking french and 2 speaking English, your situational awareness goes right out the window (just like your french classes in high school)
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
coz
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2008, 08:58:33 PM »

No sound for me.
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moto400ex
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2008, 09:11:44 PM »

No sound here either. I downloaded it twice.
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cessna157
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2008, 09:49:31 PM »

Turn media player's volume all the way up, then turn your computer's volume all the way up, then turn your speakers volume all the way up.  Volume level on this clip is set to mouse squeak level
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
Pro2004
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2008, 11:08:32 AM »

Nevermind, just had poor sound quality in the clip.

This clip reminds me of just one of the many reasons I really hate flying in Canadian airspace.  ICAO regulations require air traffic communications to be in English.  Granted, as an American carrier, when we fly in Canadian airspace, the controllers all speak English to us.  But when you have 10 airplanes all on the same frequency, 8 speaking french and 2 speaking English, your situational awareness goes right out the window (just like your french classes in high school)

Would that mean that you think that french canadians should not have the right to fly in their own language in their own country???
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eppy
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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2008, 01:31:22 PM »

I have corrected the sound level and truncated the silent sections. Here is the recording.

Tim

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cessna157
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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2008, 01:59:40 PM »

Would that mean that you think that french canadians should not have the right to fly in their own language in their own country???

No, not at all.  It means that ICAO has directed that all airmen and air traffic control services be fluent in and use english as the primary means of communication in all radiotelephony transmissions.  This is to keep an Air China flight crew from speaking Russian while in German airspace.  It also permits the Air China pilots to understand every instruction the controller is giving to other aircraft to anticipate traffic patterns, directions, etc.

For example:
If I'm on approach into an airport, and, as far as I can tell, I'm the only aircraft approaching a particular runway, I can expect a short approach.  Therefore I can slow the aircraft and configure it for the quickest safest and most efficient approach.  But if I hear many aircraft in line ahead of me for the same runway, I can listen to the radio of where to look for traffic, how far out they're turning final, what speeds they're using, etc.
Except in the case when I'm flying into YUL, and there are 2 flights speaking English and 6 others speaking french.  I may hear lots of radio traffic, but I sure don't know what they're out there doing.  Granted, if I hear lots of traffic, it would probably mean its busy and finals are wrong.  But they may all be getting sequenced for the parallel runway.  Or the controller might have instructed an aircraft on final to slow so he may put one in front of him who is on downwind.  In either case, I may not have the aircraft in a position to make an approach from that spot.  There are just too many variables.
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eppy
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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2008, 05:18:31 PM »


Would that mean that you think that french canadians should not have the right to fly in their own language in their own country???


No, not at all.  It means that ICAO has directed that all airmen and air traffic control services be fluent in and use english as the primary means of communication in all radiotelephony transmissions.  This is to keep an Air China flight crew from speaking Russian while in German airspace.  It also permits the Air China pilots to understand every instruction the controller is giving to other aircraft to anticipate traffic patterns, directions, etc.


Excuse my bluntness, but this is quite simply incorrect. I refer you to ICAO resolution A32-16 on the use of the Language in International Airspace. Under 'Language to be used', it states:

Para 5.2.1.2.1: The air-ground radiotelephony
communications shall be conducted in the
language normally used by the station on the
ground or in the English language

Para 5.2.1.2.2 The English language shall be
available, on request from any aircraft station, at
all stations on the ground serving designated
airports and routes used by international air
services

The words 'or in the English Language' were added in an attempt to promote the use of English in ATC. However, this is a long way from your assertion above.

Reference: http://www.icao.int/icao/en/assembl/a36/wp/wp151_en.pdf

« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 06:21:23 PM by eppy » Logged
Pro2004
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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2008, 11:45:13 AM »


Would that mean that you think that french canadians should not have the right to fly in their own language in their own country???


No, not at all.  It means that ICAO has directed that all airmen and air traffic control services be fluent in and use english as the primary means of communication in all radiotelephony transmissions.  This is to keep an Air China flight crew from speaking Russian while in German airspace.  It also permits the Air China pilots to understand every instruction the controller is giving to other aircraft to anticipate traffic patterns, directions, etc.


Excuse my bluntness, but this is quite simply incorrect. I refer you to ICAO resolution A32-16 on the use of the Language in International Airspace. Under 'Language to be used', it states:

Para 5.2.1.2.1: The air-ground radiotelephony
communications shall be conducted in the
language normally used by the station on the
ground or in the English language

Para 5.2.1.2.2 The English language shall be
available, on request from any aircraft station, at
all stations on the ground serving designated
airports and routes used by international air
services

The words 'or in the English Language' were added in an attempt to promote the use of English in ATC. However, this is a long way from your assertion above.

Reference: http://www.icao.int/icao/en/assembl/a36/wp/wp151_en.pdf



Eppy, you pointed out exactly what i had in mind, Thans for the correction.  Anyway, my point was to make you guys listen to that tragic moment that happened 2 weeks ago.  No matter what it was in french or in english, they panicked!
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moto400ex
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2008, 06:47:45 PM »

WOW!!! That would be quite the story to tell.  Im not sure I would be able to scream is that happen to me but it sure would give me some smelly drawers to go home with. 
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bcrosby
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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2008, 12:23:34 PM »

incase you are wondering, the CADORS number for this incident is:

2008Q0580
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Scrapper
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2008, 12:36:57 AM »

Cessna, I have a couple of major problems with your reasoning. First of all, English is the international language of radiotelephony, but not the ONLY language of telephony. If you're in Spain, regional guys will talk to their controllers in Spanish, if you're in Quebec, then the regional guys will talk in French. There are airports in the world where the controllers don't even SPEAK English, and this information is made available to pilots in their version of the Flight Supplement. You can't prevent a guy from flying if both the controller AND the pilot speak the same language, in a country or province where that's the predominant language...

Second point I want to make is that I 100% agree with you that the extra situational awareness you get from hearing whose behind you, who's ahead of you, etc. gives you an idea on how much you can slow down, how long your downwind will be in a terminal airspace, etc. (this stuff applies in higher levels as well, for which FLs have turbulence, etc.), but my main problem with this is that while that stuff HELPS, it's MY job to give it to you... You have TCAS on board to give you SOME situational awareness about who's ahead of you, or that there's someone coming up your chuff, but ultimately it's my job to let you know that you can't slow to more than 190 knots until you cross the marker, etc., not yours... (hypothetically speaking of course... I'm a controller, but in the navy, not in a terminal environment). If you need to keep the speed up, I'll let you know and why... if there's windshear on final and the pilot ahead of it reports it then I will pass it on to you in the language of your understaning... all the extra chatter you hear in the language you don't understand, is exactly that... chatter... unless its important enough for the rest of the planes around, at which point the controller will pass the relevant info back to you... You must not fly very often overseas, because in Europe, you'll hear all SORTS of languages. In Russia you will hear russian, etc. Of course the intent is for a chinese guy not to be speaking in Russain in German, that's a bad example. The common language for all is English, so for the air china guy that's in Germany, he will speak in english, but when he arrives back at home, he may very well speak in english OR chinese, just like when an Air France flight is landing into CYUL, he will speak in French if he feels like it, becaause the Air Traffic Services are being offered in both languages. Situational awareness helps, but is not a requirement. That's what the controller is there for. Regardless of what language you speak and what language others on the net are speaking, the guys at Montreal Terminal will ensure your seperation, so you don't really NEED the situational awareness...
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 04:28:29 PM by Scrapper » Logged
jato
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2008, 10:26:36 PM »

Excellent point Scrapper.
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