Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 31, 2016, 03:26:27 AM
Home Help Login Register      
News: Check out: Air Race Classic 2016


+  LiveATC Discussion Forums
|-+  Air Traffic Monitoring
| |-+  Aviation Audio Clips (Moderators: dave, RonR)
| | |-+  Air Transat panic in the cockpit
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Air Transat panic in the cockpit  (Read 55123 times)
1958MM
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2008, 07:52:09 PM »

so you don't really NEED the situational awareness...

Absolute lunacy...

Logged
pgarside
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2008, 10:05:30 PM »

i completely agree.  added situational awareness can always add that small bit of needed safety.  Its not that i dont fully believe that a controler will be there to keep me completely safe, but lets face it, we're all human and mistakes are made everyday.  giving the pilot the ability to see the 'big picture' could possibly tip the scales and make some sort of accident avoidable.
Logged
CFVDI
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 31


« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2008, 03:50:47 PM »

Also agree 100 percent with erasmus.  Having flown in Quebec the fun begins when you fly into an uncontrolled airport and cannot speak French.  You are fine if there is ATC or FSS services provided as they are bilingual but you still lose the SA as stated.  Try flying into airports such as Bromont, Valcourt, Trois Rivieres and many others with maybe a Unicom or no services.  A French pilot broadcasting intentions and an English pilot doing the same.  A real safe situation!!
Logged
cmdtmarcelo
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2008, 12:29:27 AM »

It's easy to say "i completely agree" when the official language is your mother language. It's very comfortable to you guys. All the world speaking english. But only suppose that ICAO rules change and all of us need to talk in mandarim, the new official language. Maybe we change the profession. And what about the Continental pilot that said to "Boston Jon": here is America.We speak english here when Jon said hasta la vista (pure chauvinism???). Ok, now we are thinking about the question!. All of us (pilot's) want's high SA and we have high SA when we are using our language. So, we need to trust in the other guys (controllers and pilots) when we are in their countries. I prefer i have small SA in another country and the natives have high SA instead of all of us (i and the natives) having poor SA trying to speak in a third language with the controller. That's my opinion, and guy's, my apologise for my poor english. Thanks
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 12:34:22 AM by cmdtmarcelo » Logged
erasmus
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2008, 04:27:27 AM »

It's easy to say "i completely agree" when the official language is your mother language. It's very comfortable to you guys. All the world speaking english. But only suppose that ICAO rules change and all of us need to talk in mandarim, the new official language. Maybe we change the profession. And what about the Continental pilot that said to "Boston Jon": here is America.We speak english here when Jon said hasta la vista (pure chauvinism???). Ok, now we are thinking about the question!. All of us (pilot's) want's high SA and we have high SA when we are using our language. So, we need to trust in the other guys (controllers and pilots) when we are in their countries.

cmdtmarcelo has a very good point there! This argument is not about: "Hey, I only speak English, so everybody has to speak English" CFVDI appears to be complaining about others not speaking HIS language, rather than about the lack of a COMMON LANGUAGE. (That is pure chauvinism indeed!)

CFVDI, if you would not be willing to learn another language as a common aviation language, you don't have the right to complain!

If you look back at my reply #22 a little bit higher, you would see that my own language is Dutch and that I would be prepared to learn Russian for instance. (I will admit that Mandarin would be a more difficult choice  shocked )

I prefer i have small SA in another country and the natives have high SA instead of all of us (i and the natives) having poor SA trying to speak in a third language with the controller. That's my opinion, and guy's, my apologise for my poor english. Thanks

That's were I politely disagree with you, cmdtmarcelo! Your English is obviously quite good and controllers and pilots all over the world should (but sadly aren't always) be proficient in English. (Isn't that what the new ICAO English proficiency requirement is all about?)
It's simply a matter of a change of culture. As soon as a kid learns to fly or a student ATCO starts his training, it should be done in English (English does appear to be the obvious choice...) and from the start ATC communication should be done in this common language.
I can guarantee you that very soon everybody involved would become very proficient in English and EVERYBODY would have high situational awareness EVERYWHERE.

I'm convinced that some day we will speak ONE common language with ATC! Do you know when this will start to be enforced? Let me tell you: AFTER a major accident with A LOT of lives lost will have happened caused by language confusion!! (The CDG incident was not bad enough) Sadly enough major safety regulation changes only happen after catastrophes!

On the "positive" side, and for the reason mentioned, Mr Murphy has assured me that one day in the near or distant future everybody will speak English on the frequency.  undecided undecided

Best regards,
Erasmus
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 02:47:39 PM by erasmus » Logged
pgarside
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2008, 11:02:57 AM »

While I do speek english as a first language, i can still understand where you are coming from.  Learning any language is a long and challeging process, and even after much practice, there will always be small isues a non-native speeker will face. 

However all of this should be besides the point.  English is the official language of aviation, and it is required that pilots and atc are able to listen and speek in english.  In a perfect world, this would mean that all pilots understand every radio call when given in english, but the reality is that there will be some missed communications.  In the event of such an orrurance, it is the pilot's responsibility to clarify the controlers requests.  The end result being a repeated radio transmission.  In my opinion, this is a much better trade off than having half the pilots on frequency understand what is said and the other half know nothing - which causes a breakdown in SA.

Furthermore, while this is slightly off topic, bashing boston John for saying 'hasta la vista' is really besides the point.  He offered all atc clearances in english and said good bye in a way which has become adopted into the american english language.
Logged
mike741
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2009, 03:12:02 PM »

I agree with SNAPPER and CESNA157.  I am an American who works for a European Air Traffic Control  service provider.  I can not say which one but look up the ICAO English Language prorfiency DOC 9835.  Also, if an aircraft starts a contact with ATC in their navtive language it is ok for the controller to continue in that language but he must also translate position information of the that aircraft to all other aircraft on frequency in English.  Many of my controller friends simply ask the pilot to speak in English unless it is a VFR flight becasue if they do not leave their FIR boundries, they are exempt from the English language requirements.  All controllers and pilots must by May 2010 show a profiency in English to a level 4.  I agree that situational awarness is lost when you have no clue what the aircraft are saying.
Logged
cessna157
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 708



WWW
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2009, 07:51:48 PM »

.  All controllers and pilots must by May 2010 show a profiency in English to a level 4.

Haha, yeah, that requirement has made a big joke in the US.  The FAA requires pilots to speak English fluently to get a pilots license.  But they recently had to reprint all of the certificates to specifically read "English proficient", even though the license itself is proof of being English proficient.
Logged

CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
phil-s
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 103


« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2009, 09:55:22 AM »

Are the English proficiency tests that are given to pilots and controllers only written or is there an oral component? I ask because I find that some of the foreign pilots landing at, say, JFK, seem to have the vocabulary they need but their pronunciation is so bad that what they say is at times frankly unintelligible. Also, many non-English speaking pilots seem to do ok as long as the questions and statements are routine but become largely unintelligible whenever they need to deal with something unusual, which is often the case in an emergency.  -- Phil
Logged
sykocus
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 349



« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2009, 12:39:14 PM »

Are the English proficiency tests that are given to pilots and controllers only written or is there an oral component? I ask because I find that some of the foreign pilots landing at, say, JFK, seem to have the vocabulary they need but their pronunciation is so bad that what they say is at times frankly unintelligible. Also, many non-English speaking pilots seem to do ok as long as the questions and statements are routine but become largely unintelligible whenever they need to deal with something unusual, which is often the case in an emergency.  -- Phil

I would estimate that close to half the pilots that I deal with are non-native english speakers. Your assessment is correct. Once you get out of the request and clearances that are most common communication can be very difficult. Not to mention you have to be very careful about read backs. I can't even count the number of times i've told a plane to "expect ILS approach" and a pilot has read back "cleared ILS approach." Interestingly enough many airlines have a native english speaker in the cockpit. Sometimes you can hear him in the background other times he'll come over the radio and speak directly when we're having trouble getting the point across.
Logged

Yesterday I couldn't spell air traffic controller. Today I R one.
DaytonaAirport
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16


« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2009, 03:15:31 AM »

Would that mean that you think that french canadians should not have the right to fly in their own language in their own country???

No, not at all.  It means that ICAO has directed that all airmen and air traffic control services be fluent in and use english as the primary means of communication in all radiotelephony transmissions.  This is to keep an Air China flight crew from speaking Russian while in German airspace.  It also permits the Air China pilots to understand every instruction the controller is giving to other aircraft to anticipate traffic patterns, directions, etc.

For example:
If I'm on approach into an airport, and, as far as I can tell, I'm the only aircraft approaching a particular runway, I can expect a short approach.  Therefore I can slow the aircraft and configure it for the quickest safest and most efficient approach.  But if I hear many aircraft in line ahead of me for the same runway, I can listen to the radio of where to look for traffic, how far out they're turning final, what speeds they're using, etc.
Except in the case when I'm flying into YUL, and there are 2 flights speaking English and 6 others speaking french.  I may hear lots of radio traffic, but I sure don't know what they're out there doing.  Granted, if I hear lots of traffic, it would probably mean its busy and finals are wrong.  But they may all be getting sequenced for the parallel runway.  Or the controller might have instructed an aircraft on final to slow so he may put one in front of him who is on downwind.  In either case, I may not have the aircraft in a position to make an approach from that spot.  There are just too many variables.
Really? I always thought Mandarin as an international language. Maybe thats an alternative instead of using French. And BTW, where is YUL?
Logged
joeyb747
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1623


Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2009, 08:46:28 PM »

Would that mean that you think that french canadians should not have the right to fly in their own language in their own country???

No, not at all.  It means that ICAO has directed that all airmen and air traffic control services be fluent in and use english as the primary means of communication in all radiotelephony transmissions.  This is to keep an Air China flight crew from speaking Russian while in German airspace.  It also permits the Air China pilots to understand every instruction the controller is giving to other aircraft to anticipate traffic patterns, directions, etc.

For example:
If I'm on approach into an airport, and, as far as I can tell, I'm the only aircraft approaching a particular runway, I can expect a short approach.  Therefore I can slow the aircraft and configure it for the quickest safest and most efficient approach.  But if I hear many aircraft in line ahead of me for the same runway, I can listen to the radio of where to look for traffic, how far out they're turning final, what speeds they're using, etc.
Except in the case when I'm flying into YUL, and there are 2 flights speaking English and 6 others speaking french.  I may hear lots of radio traffic, but I sure don't know what they're out there doing.  Granted, if I hear lots of traffic, it would probably mean its busy and finals are wrong.  But they may all be getting sequenced for the parallel runway.  Or the controller might have instructed an aircraft on final to slow so he may put one in front of him who is on downwind.  In either case, I may not have the aircraft in a position to make an approach from that spot.  There are just too many variables.
Really? I always thought Mandarin as an international language. Maybe thats an alternative instead of using French. And BTW, where is YUL?

CYUL is Pierre Elliott Trudeau International (Dorval) in Montréal, Québec, Canada.
Logged

Aircraft Mechanic
Pages: 1 [2] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!