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Author Topic: Another..."Can I Get Your Number Please" Clip  (Read 21994 times)
JALTO
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« on: August 20, 2008, 01:25:22 PM »

Caught this during a runway swap at PHL. 


-Jalto


* PHL-Twr-Aug-20-2008-1530Z.wav (2306.98 KB - downloaded 1357 times.)
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cessna157
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« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2008, 01:41:45 PM »

Just another clip of SWA complaining that they didn't get priority handling and complaining when, god forbid, things would happen to change in a plan.

Then, just to make it worse, he does the worst thing of complaining even further over a live, public frequency in use.
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evilcuban
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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 02:32:11 PM »

*sigh*  I thought the controller was really good about that.  You could tell he seemed to think the SWA pilot was a bit of a moron.  The pilot sounded more like a complaining, completely uninformed and unaware airline passenger than a pilot.
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obmaha
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 08:18:15 PM »

What a D-Bag. I wonder what he thinks comments like that with acomplish other than upseting a controller working his butt off. Too bad there are pilots our there like that.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 08:42:04 PM »

Good clip of one pilot who should have kept his attitude off the airways.

If you have some time, you may want to consider re-editing the clip and bleeping out the super's phone number, however.
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RayZor
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« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 08:59:04 PM »

Just curious, are airline pilots under pressure to get off the ground as soon as possible to save fuel?  In other words, will the pilot who requested the phone number hear anything from his superiors about taking too long to take off?  I can't think of any other reason he'd have to justify putting even more pressure on a hard-working air traffic controller.
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gredenko
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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 09:05:17 PM »

Just curious, are airline pilots under pressure to get off the ground as soon as possible to save fuel?

Southwest is.  They don't get paid "hourly" like most of us airline pilots.  They have a scheme where they get paid based on the flight itself.  It's been explained to me, but it's hard to describe.  Basically, that's why they taxi so fast and want to get going.  Also why they can turn a plane in like 20 minutes. 
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A_J_D_C
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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2008, 09:57:32 AM »

the controller handled that so well, kept his cool, and to that i give him a clap, I didnt think that because of the price of fuel going up, the airlines started to take it out of the pilots pay if they dont get off the GND when the controller says that they will, he needs to sit back, take a breathe and think that on his shift for the day, he is going to have the best view in the house and see things that most people dont get to see sitting in their office seat. They have one of the most stressfull jobs yer, but one of the best jobs someone could ask for. Many people would love to do the job and experience the sights of what pilots get to see up front.
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nhpilot
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2008, 02:37:05 PM »

I agree that the SWA pilot probably should have stopped while he was ahead. But on the flip side when it's pretty obvious that the "home" carrier is given preferential treatment and it happens frequently, you have to agree with the "raised eyebrow" that's occasionally given. Was it in this case? There was a runway change, so hard to say. But as pilots, it's our nature to know the "whats and the whys"...especially if you're being given the runaround. Good for him......fuel is burning.

Would love to have listened in on that phone call.  smiley
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phlcontroller
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« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2008, 10:35:59 PM »

15 or so departures lined up at 9L, leftover from the morning push, second departure push starting to call outbound. Winds change. Steady stream of arrivals who have already been holding continue to fill the final. The call is made to swing the "boat". Downwinds are now filling with 27R arrivals. The Getaway that departed was a different departure fix than SWA and there were no in-trails to the fix he was departing over. SWA had in-trails. Somebody has to be last, it sucks, but that's life. As a controller at PHL I do wish we  had the time to explain the whys and hows over the frequency but there is just so much going on in the tower at once it would Cause us to get so behind that it would cause gridlock on the airport. As far as favoring the "home" carrier, I don't believe that exists at PHL regardless what anybody thinks. I Don't care who's at the runway when I say clear for takeoff. I'm trying to get rid of as many airplanes as fast as I can. Bye the way that first voice in the clip is a developmental, then the instructor,one of PHL's veterans, "eligible" to retire handled it flawlessly.
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keith
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« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2008, 10:39:33 AM »

I'm a relatively low-time private pilot, never flown out of a super busy airport like that, but it seems to me that it's OK to ask for a number to discuss an issue and find out why things went down the way they did. It's NOT ok, though, after receiving the number to continue to push the issue when the tower guy is just trying to do his job, and is obviously busy. 

It's clear that the pilot is frustrated and is essentially starting to vent on the frequency. Maybe he was having a bad day, too, and let his judgment slip.

Full credit to the controller that posted above, and to the guy working the freq. If this had happened at JFK, I can only think what would've happened to that pilot!
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phlcontroller
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« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2008, 01:47:54 PM »

Exactly, get the # then press on.
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rpd
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« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2008, 11:06:42 PM »

As a controller I get sick of the "home carrier" scenarios that are raised.  If a carrier has a major hub, it will always appear they have special treatment.  Where I work it is a major SWA hub, and we always hear "of course" when we tell an aircraft to follow SWA.  But if you fly into our airport at any time, it is a pretty good chance you will follow SWA.  If you fly into ATL you will probably follow DAL, AAL at DFW, UAL at IAD etc.  It is just simple numbers.  They have way more flights at a hub.

Like the PHL controller said, all we want is the aircraft to take off and get out of the airspace as soon as possible without regard to airline.  We have no incentive to favor any airline, home carrier or not.

By the way, the flight that departed was not the home carrier USAirways, but USA3000 (callsign "Getaway") airline which probably only has a few flights a day at PHL.
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nhpilot
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« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2008, 11:14:39 PM »

Maybe the JFK controller would have just said "SWA 123 you're going over a different fix than he is and there's in-trail on yours, thus the delay"......that's it....end of conversation. By the recording it sounded like they were sequenced and expected to be numero six for departure, it was changed and they wanted to know why. He didn't get an answer and asked for the #. Sure he whined a bit much, but remember he also has to answer to his Captain, his company and 120 souls sitting in the back.

I have the utmost respect for every controller out there, especially the ones working the high density airports and sectors. Sometimes though pilots do need an answer or an explanation for planning purposes or they just need to know "why".  smiley
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nhpilot
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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2008, 11:29:05 PM »

rpd~

I have no doubt that complaining about preferential treatment gets sensationalized more often than not. But to think that it doesn't exist is a stretch. It's human nature to take care of the "family" and if it is one of the major contributors to the local economy, it probably should be done....inconspicuously of course.  smiley

Besides it gives us just one more thing to complain about.   wink
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glencar
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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2008, 01:26:13 AM »

Maybe the JFK controller would have just said "SWA 123 you're going over a different fix than he is and there's in-trail on yours, thus the delay"......that's it....end of conversation. By the recording it sounded like they were sequenced and expected to be numero six for departure, it was changed and they wanted to know why. He didn't get an answer and asked for the #. Sure he whined a bit much, but remember he also has to answer to his Captain, his company and 120 souls sitting in the back.

I have the utmost respect for every controller out there, especially the ones working the high density airports and sectors. Sometimes though pilots do need an answer or an explanation for planning purposes or they just need to know "why".  smiley
JFK controller? Nah, this was PHL.
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cessna157
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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2008, 06:26:51 AM »

Maybe the JFK controller would have just said "SWA 123 you're going over a different fix than he is and there's in-trail on yours, thus the delay"......that's it....end of conversation. By the recording it sounded like they were sequenced and expected to be numero six for departure, it was changed and they wanted to know why. He didn't get an answer and asked for the #. Sure he whined a bit much, but remember he also has to answer to his Captain, his company and 120 souls sitting in the back.

Just a couple short comments here:
The day I see Southwest in JFK will be the day I retire.  They would never survive with an operation there.  Way out of Southwest's league.

The fact that they were going over different departure gates I don't think is what caused the change in runway.  The airspace had already been switched over to flow the opposite direction.

I'm 95% sure that this was the captain on the radio.  You can hear the voices change when they finally stop complaining.  Also, in this day and age, the F/O doesn't necessarily have to "answer to his captain" as CRM has pretty much eliminated that thought process.  We're a team, both on the same airplane, both trying to stay safe, both flying to the same city, etc.
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mk
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« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2008, 06:59:57 AM »

TWO THINGS:

1. If it weren't for Southwest then no airline would be in good standing right now because the market price for a price would be way way way over priced, and no one would be able to fly out of JFK or the NY area due to prices.  To say SWA would never survive the "environment" (whatever that is) is over the top, if not rediculous.  Come on, they're the most successful airline still operating.

2.I work at a SWA hot spot as well, and there is NO special treatment given to anyone.  If you're a pilot and have never been to the radar facility that works any class B airport, then before you brainstorm these crazy ideas on speculation, go visit a real TRACON and you'll get the picture.  --- We get airplanes in trail from the center, we merge 3 or more feeds together for a runway, and then you land.  it's one behind the other, first come, first serve to whoever can get to my 7 mile gap first.
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cessna157
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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2008, 07:57:26 AM »

Well I can see where this thread is heading, so I'll post my reply and bail out.

1. If it weren't for Southwest then no airline would be in good standing right now because the market price for a price would be way way way over priced, and no one would be able to fly out of JFK or the NY area due to prices.  To say SWA would never survive the "environment" (whatever that is) is over the top, if not rediculous.  Come on, they're the most successful airline still operating.

While I agree that SWA is obviously on top when it comes to revenue, employee morale, and customer satisfaction (although there are indications that the latter might be declining), they are in that spot for a reason: partly because they avoid the major traffic hotspots (MDW vs ORD, DAL vs DFW, OAK vs SFO, etc, and completely avoiding the NYC 3)

They are successful because they do not operate in these "enviornments" as you call them.  I did not mean to imply that they would go out of business if they were hubbed there (but you could not say that they would be in the same place if they were).

2.I work at a SWA hot spot as well, and there is NO special treatment given to anyone.  If you're a pilot and have never been to the radar facility that works any class B airport, then before you brainstorm these crazy ideas on speculation, go visit a real TRACON and you'll get the picture.

In my own defense, yes I have.  I have visited and spent considerable time in 7 FAA facilities, and worked in my own tower, so I am aware of their traffic procedures.  I agree with RDP saying that if you are in an airline's hub and are told to follow said airline, statistics have it that was inevitable.  There is also another side to the same story though.  While not necessarily showing favortism, controllers will treat the home carrier differently than the visiting team, strictly due to familiarity on both sides.  A CVG controller will treat a Comair flight (where the pilots/controllers work with each other on a daily basis) much differently than a Midwest Airlines flight (where the pilots/controllers are unfamiliar with each other), or a DFW controller will treat AA a lot differently than a JBU.  Its not favortism, it is the fact that they take each other for granted that each knows each other very well.

To go into your filling the gap example, I'll use my own experience to provide a real life example.  In CVG, when they are landing south (roughly 75% of the time), there are 3 primary arrival routes that feed to 18L, 2 from the south and 1 from the north.  So, these routes will merge as some point, usually on base leg.  While on downwind for 18L, traffic is descended to 9000, then abeam the dept end to 7000, then midfield to either 3000 or 4000.  We adjust our descent rates depending on the length of final by listening to traffic flows, TCAS, etc.  The controllers know this.  Something they do with us (Comair) that they admittedly will not do with another similiar aircraft is tell us that we are going to get a gap early and to plan for a short approach.  This allows us to configure/slow the aircraft early to get a steeper descent rate for a shorter base.  This isn't necessarily favortism in my mind, as a foriegn carrier would not know what to expect (the opposite happens in ATL as it is a different operation, when an ATL controllers says "expect short approach" you can expect a 10 mile final, not a 4 mile approach).
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mk
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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2008, 04:33:30 PM »

ok well i'll give ya the CVG...sounds like a good deal they give ya there with the heads up...but we have 2 airports that have an overwhelming number of one airline, and no one here has time for any time of favoritism or sentiments.  we just try to stay ahead and keep our ass out of the sups office. 

SWA does know the routine a lot better and in certain runway configurations they know a quicker descent from the west to a base will beat someone on a downwind.  but if i want to put a comair in a hole, i'll tell him or any other to pick up the descent for best sequence. cool 
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nhpilot
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« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2008, 08:28:23 PM »

JFK controller? Nah, this was PHL.
[/quote]

The "JFK" comment was a follow up to somebody saying "JFK" would have chewed them up and spit them out.  rolleyes
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nhpilot
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« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2008, 08:32:29 PM »



Just a couple short comments here:
The day I see Southwest in JFK will be the day I retire.  They would never survive with an operation there.  Way out of Southwest's league.

The fact that they were going over different departure gates I don't think is what caused the change in runway.  The airspace had already been switched over to flow the opposite direction.

I'm 95% sure that this was the captain on the radio.  You can hear the voices change when they finally stop complaining.  Also, in this day and age, the F/O doesn't necessarily have to "answer to his captain" as CRM has pretty much eliminated that thought process.  We're a team, both on the same airplane, both trying to stay safe, both flying to the same city, etc.
[/quote]

I agree, SWA would want nothing to do with going in and out of JFK. And you're right, going over different departure gates had nothing to do with the runway change. The fact that they weren't informed was the reason behind the point. "Answering to the Captain" was tongue in cheek. Though if I'm off the freq, I'd sure like to know what the F/O found out.    wink
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2008, 01:18:28 AM »

nhpilot - Apologies for nitpicking but your quoting is all messed up, making your posts hard to read.   Your quotes need a begin quote tag, too, prior to the text you are quoting. 
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nhpilot
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2008, 11:37:16 AM »

Yeah saw that after the fact, sorry about that. Fingers are faster than the brain sometimes.  embarassed I do want to add that (sticking to the thread) the SWA pilot should have just gotten the # and moved on, but sometimes in the fast paced and ever changing environment that we do fly in, it's tough to keep things "under the hood". Hopefully he got what he was looking for.  smiley
 
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2008, 04:31:44 PM »

What a whinner.  cry
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