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Author Topic: Another..."Can I Get Your Number Please" Clip  (Read 15081 times)
glencar
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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2008, 01:26:13 AM »

Maybe the JFK controller would have just said "SWA 123 you're going over a different fix than he is and there's in-trail on yours, thus the delay"......that's it....end of conversation. By the recording it sounded like they were sequenced and expected to be numero six for departure, it was changed and they wanted to know why. He didn't get an answer and asked for the #. Sure he whined a bit much, but remember he also has to answer to his Captain, his company and 120 souls sitting in the back.

I have the utmost respect for every controller out there, especially the ones working the high density airports and sectors. Sometimes though pilots do need an answer or an explanation for planning purposes or they just need to know "why".  smiley
JFK controller? Nah, this was PHL.
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cessna157
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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2008, 06:26:51 AM »

Maybe the JFK controller would have just said "SWA 123 you're going over a different fix than he is and there's in-trail on yours, thus the delay"......that's it....end of conversation. By the recording it sounded like they were sequenced and expected to be numero six for departure, it was changed and they wanted to know why. He didn't get an answer and asked for the #. Sure he whined a bit much, but remember he also has to answer to his Captain, his company and 120 souls sitting in the back.

Just a couple short comments here:
The day I see Southwest in JFK will be the day I retire.  They would never survive with an operation there.  Way out of Southwest's league.

The fact that they were going over different departure gates I don't think is what caused the change in runway.  The airspace had already been switched over to flow the opposite direction.

I'm 95% sure that this was the captain on the radio.  You can hear the voices change when they finally stop complaining.  Also, in this day and age, the F/O doesn't necessarily have to "answer to his captain" as CRM has pretty much eliminated that thought process.  We're a team, both on the same airplane, both trying to stay safe, both flying to the same city, etc.
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mk
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« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2008, 06:59:57 AM »

TWO THINGS:

1. If it weren't for Southwest then no airline would be in good standing right now because the market price for a price would be way way way over priced, and no one would be able to fly out of JFK or the NY area due to prices.  To say SWA would never survive the "environment" (whatever that is) is over the top, if not rediculous.  Come on, they're the most successful airline still operating.

2.I work at a SWA hot spot as well, and there is NO special treatment given to anyone.  If you're a pilot and have never been to the radar facility that works any class B airport, then before you brainstorm these crazy ideas on speculation, go visit a real TRACON and you'll get the picture.  --- We get airplanes in trail from the center, we merge 3 or more feeds together for a runway, and then you land.  it's one behind the other, first come, first serve to whoever can get to my 7 mile gap first.
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cessna157
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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2008, 07:57:26 AM »

Well I can see where this thread is heading, so I'll post my reply and bail out.

1. If it weren't for Southwest then no airline would be in good standing right now because the market price for a price would be way way way over priced, and no one would be able to fly out of JFK or the NY area due to prices.  To say SWA would never survive the "environment" (whatever that is) is over the top, if not rediculous.  Come on, they're the most successful airline still operating.

While I agree that SWA is obviously on top when it comes to revenue, employee morale, and customer satisfaction (although there are indications that the latter might be declining), they are in that spot for a reason: partly because they avoid the major traffic hotspots (MDW vs ORD, DAL vs DFW, OAK vs SFO, etc, and completely avoiding the NYC 3)

They are successful because they do not operate in these "enviornments" as you call them.  I did not mean to imply that they would go out of business if they were hubbed there (but you could not say that they would be in the same place if they were).

2.I work at a SWA hot spot as well, and there is NO special treatment given to anyone.  If you're a pilot and have never been to the radar facility that works any class B airport, then before you brainstorm these crazy ideas on speculation, go visit a real TRACON and you'll get the picture.

In my own defense, yes I have.  I have visited and spent considerable time in 7 FAA facilities, and worked in my own tower, so I am aware of their traffic procedures.  I agree with RDP saying that if you are in an airline's hub and are told to follow said airline, statistics have it that was inevitable.  There is also another side to the same story though.  While not necessarily showing favortism, controllers will treat the home carrier differently than the visiting team, strictly due to familiarity on both sides.  A CVG controller will treat a Comair flight (where the pilots/controllers work with each other on a daily basis) much differently than a Midwest Airlines flight (where the pilots/controllers are unfamiliar with each other), or a DFW controller will treat AA a lot differently than a JBU.  Its not favortism, it is the fact that they take each other for granted that each knows each other very well.

To go into your filling the gap example, I'll use my own experience to provide a real life example.  In CVG, when they are landing south (roughly 75% of the time), there are 3 primary arrival routes that feed to 18L, 2 from the south and 1 from the north.  So, these routes will merge as some point, usually on base leg.  While on downwind for 18L, traffic is descended to 9000, then abeam the dept end to 7000, then midfield to either 3000 or 4000.  We adjust our descent rates depending on the length of final by listening to traffic flows, TCAS, etc.  The controllers know this.  Something they do with us (Comair) that they admittedly will not do with another similiar aircraft is tell us that we are going to get a gap early and to plan for a short approach.  This allows us to configure/slow the aircraft early to get a steeper descent rate for a shorter base.  This isn't necessarily favortism in my mind, as a foriegn carrier would not know what to expect (the opposite happens in ATL as it is a different operation, when an ATL controllers says "expect short approach" you can expect a 10 mile final, not a 4 mile approach).
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mk
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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2008, 04:33:30 PM »

ok well i'll give ya the CVG...sounds like a good deal they give ya there with the heads up...but we have 2 airports that have an overwhelming number of one airline, and no one here has time for any time of favoritism or sentiments.  we just try to stay ahead and keep our ass out of the sups office. 

SWA does know the routine a lot better and in certain runway configurations they know a quicker descent from the west to a base will beat someone on a downwind.  but if i want to put a comair in a hole, i'll tell him or any other to pick up the descent for best sequence. cool 
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nhpilot
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« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2008, 08:28:23 PM »

JFK controller? Nah, this was PHL.
[/quote]

The "JFK" comment was a follow up to somebody saying "JFK" would have chewed them up and spit them out.  rolleyes
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nhpilot
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« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2008, 08:32:29 PM »



Just a couple short comments here:
The day I see Southwest in JFK will be the day I retire.  They would never survive with an operation there.  Way out of Southwest's league.

The fact that they were going over different departure gates I don't think is what caused the change in runway.  The airspace had already been switched over to flow the opposite direction.

I'm 95% sure that this was the captain on the radio.  You can hear the voices change when they finally stop complaining.  Also, in this day and age, the F/O doesn't necessarily have to "answer to his captain" as CRM has pretty much eliminated that thought process.  We're a team, both on the same airplane, both trying to stay safe, both flying to the same city, etc.
[/quote]

I agree, SWA would want nothing to do with going in and out of JFK. And you're right, going over different departure gates had nothing to do with the runway change. The fact that they weren't informed was the reason behind the point. "Answering to the Captain" was tongue in cheek. Though if I'm off the freq, I'd sure like to know what the F/O found out.    wink
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2008, 01:18:28 AM »

nhpilot - Apologies for nitpicking but your quoting is all messed up, making your posts hard to read.   Your quotes need a begin quote tag, too, prior to the text you are quoting. 
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Regards, Peter
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nhpilot
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2008, 11:37:16 AM »

Yeah saw that after the fact, sorry about that. Fingers are faster than the brain sometimes.  embarassed I do want to add that (sticking to the thread) the SWA pilot should have just gotten the # and moved on, but sometimes in the fast paced and ever changing environment that we do fly in, it's tough to keep things "under the hood". Hopefully he got what he was looking for.  smiley
 
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aviator_06
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2008, 04:31:44 PM »

What a whinner.  cry
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pwr2al4
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« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2008, 12:24:22 PM »

What a jerk
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goowe
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« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2008, 12:52:26 PM »

Ugh, yes. Listening to this again makes me frustrated.
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Alton (Joe) Anderson - AltonAnderson.com
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englishpilot
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« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2008, 06:36:09 PM »

Thought the pilot was a bit 'snotty' there. 

As said above the controller kept his cool - would have been a shame if the dialogue went further downhill.
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I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe.
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