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Author Topic: Another ice problem near Buffalo tonight  (Read 22373 times)
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2006, 03:31:14 PM »

Quote from: dan9125
I did see there was 2 similar flights and picked the wrong one. Check out the speed also, down to 106 knots!


Based on her lengthy explanation near the end of the clip, my speculation is that she failed to use the pitot heat and failed to routinely cycle the boots to shed the ice from the leading edges as she cruised at 11,000 feet on her way up to Bangor.

The failure to use the boots is most likely what allowed the ice to build and result in a stall and the three 90 degree rolls she described, and her erroneously low airspeed indications that she screamed out during the emergency were probably due to an ice-blocked pitot tube rather than a slow aircraft.
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Regards, Peter
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« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2006, 03:41:37 PM »

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I did see there was 2 similar flights and picked the wrong one. Check out the speed also, down to 106 knots!


That's the speed across the ground. In a 1200 fpm descent (which is how far she descended in that minute), the airspeed would certainly have gone up, not down. The ground speed is lower because she was moving down, instead of forward, so fast...
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Biff
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« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2006, 03:42:26 PM »

Sounds like she got into icing, and let the autopilot fly her into a stall.  She might have noticed before it got to that point if she'd been hand flying it.

Not that there's anything wrong with using an autopilot.  I sure would be.
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Jason
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« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2006, 05:05:29 PM »

Quote from: Biff
Sounds like she got into icing, and let the autopilot fly her into a stall.  She might have noticed before it got to that point if she'd been hand flying it.

Not that there's anything wrong with using an autopilot.  I sure would be.


No, you're right, Biff.  It is a recommended practice (studies by NASA have proved this) to always handfly the aircraft if flying in icing.  You can detect ice and remedy the issue a lot sooner than if the autopilot is flying the plane.

Unless your autopilot knows how to talk to you, hand-flying in icing conditions is a much better choice under most instances.
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dan9125
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« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2006, 05:10:42 PM »

I think the worst thing was that she didnt seam to know what was causing the problem, just that she suddenly lost controll.

 Dan
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flyer_d
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« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2006, 06:44:54 PM »

While the controller helped by staying calm, he really should have given her the groundspeed earlier (as soon as she said she was showing 80 kts, which would have helped her diagnose the (apparent) blocked pitot) and he never once gave her vectors to the nearest airport (saying "south-south-east" is only marginally helpful in that situation).

(I agree it also sounds like the pilot made some serious mistakes.)

A scary post.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2006, 06:55:54 PM »

Quote from: flyer_d
While the controller helped by staying calm, he really should have given her the groundspeed earlier (as soon as she said she was showing 80 kts, which would have helped her diagnose the (apparent) blocked pitot) and he never once gave her vectors to the nearest airport (saying "south-south-east" is only marginally helpful in that situation).


During the moments that the controller was calling out the nearest airports, the aircraft was still in an uncontrolled descent.  IMO, there really was nothing the controller could do to help the situation at that point, perhaps other than to be the calm voice at the other end.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
flyer_d
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« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2006, 07:08:57 PM »

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During the moments that the controller was calling out the nearest airports, the aircraft was still in an uncontrolled descent.  IMO, there really was nothing the controller could do to help the situation at that point, perhaps other than to be the calm voice at the other end.


Perhaps true, but I was noting that he "never once" gave her vectors -- even in the time between arresting the descent and saying that she would press on to Maine.  At that time, something like "nearest airport is 10 degrees right and 5 miles" would have been very helpful.

I'm not trying to dump on the controller -- he did a good job.  But it's always a good idea to try to learn from these events.
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flyer_d
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« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2006, 07:11:57 PM »

How come the quote is all screwed up?  It looked fine when I did the preview, but when I hit submit, it looked like that.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2006, 07:22:19 PM »

Quote from: Jason
No, you're right, Biff.  It is a recommended practice (studies by NASA have proved this) to always handfly the aircraft if flying in icing.  You can detect ice and remedy the issue a lot sooner than if the autopilot is flying the plane.


As an IFR pilot of a single-engine GA (general aviation) aircraft who flies in the Northeast US, let me offer a dissenting opinion based on experience:  

Regardless of whether the aircraft is known-ice (certified to fly into forecast icing conditions) or not, a proficient IFR GA pilot about to launch on an IFR flight will already know, thanks to proper preflight planning, that icing conditions might or will be encountered.   Hence, if icing conditions are suspected during the flight, the pilot must routinely scan the leading edges of the wing or horizontal stabilizer, or scan some other protrusion in order to see the first sign of ice build-up.  This is just as important as scanning the instruments for proper altitude, attitude, speeds, and heading.   At the first sign of ice build-up, the pilot must then respond by executing his/her already conceived plan to escape the ice build-up.

With this in mind, using the AP if the aircraft is so equipped is actually preferable since the AP will fly the aircraft and free up the pilot to both monitor the AP's performance (heading, alt, speed, etc) and scan for the first signs of ice formation.

Any IFR GA pilot who waits for reduced performance (aka feeling it in the hand flying of the aircraft) to confirm that ice build-up is occurring is just asking for an ice-induced episode like that which seems depicted in this audio clip.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2006, 08:43:27 PM »

Quote from: flyer_d
Perhaps true, but I was noting that he "never once" gave her vectors -- even in the time between arresting the descent and saying that she would press on to Maine.  At that time, something like "nearest airport is 10 degrees right and 5 miles" would have been very helpful.


The pilot never asked for vectors to the nearest airport, despite the controller querying her a few times as to what she needed.   If she didn't request to be vectored to the airport, why clutter up the airwaves?

Regarding your quoting, this is a known problem with this forum software here at LiveATC and Dave admitted in another, recent post that he is going to look into correcting the problem.  It even happens to Dave, so you are in good company.  Smiley
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
flyer_d
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« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2006, 12:15:52 AM »

Thanks for the info on the quotes.  Glad to know it wasn't my error.  Cheesy

On the vectors issue, check out chapter 10 of Order 7110.65R.  For guidance to an emergency airport, radar is #1, and compass headings is #6.  There is a reason for that.  (And there is nothing that says that emergency guidance is provided only upon request.)

Fly safe.
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Hobbyist
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« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2006, 12:23:56 PM »

Yes everybody I had listen to it but she was in distress/panic about it and congrats to her that she regained control of the airplane. And also to the controler who talked her out of the situation. Otherwise she may of bought the farm.
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Rich of Peak
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« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2006, 01:48:58 PM »

Pretty scary stuff.....

 But you have to wonder after an episode like that why the pilot would keep going to destination.  She was obviously extremely irrate to say the least and sounded pretty shaken up at the end of the clip.  What amazes me is that the controller had to suggest a descent below the freezing level.  He was basically holding her hand, in that type of situation that aircraft should land ASAP.

Pilot Decision Making was definately lacking in this situation, maybe thats what got the aircraft into trouble in the first place.

Wow
Sometimes I wonder
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Check Airman
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« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2006, 05:56:46 PM »

Then, in addition to explaining the emergency situation, she'd have also have to explain to her boss why the cargo wasn't in Bangor on time.

Forget the darn cargo. I'll save my rear any day.
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