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Author Topic: Another ice problem near Buffalo tonight  (Read 36563 times)
dan9125
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« on: April 23, 2006, 11:25:27 PM »

This was a close call near Buffalo tonight (Sunday)at around 10:15pm, listen to this!

  Dan

(http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kbuf.m3u)http://

* KBUF-Apr-23-06-ice.wav (12359.74 KB - downloaded 897 times.)
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cpumodem
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« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2006, 12:40:43 AM »

First mistake she made after getting control of the airplane is to keep going. I would of landed at the nearest airport. Maybe changed my shorts and continued flying the next morning if the weather was better.
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dan9125
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2006, 07:44:06 AM »

Sorry its such a big file, my version of audacity would only let me export it as a WAV. file. I bet my friend Peter could turn it into a MP3!

  Dan
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Jason
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« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2006, 08:16:40 AM »

Quote from: dan9125
Sorry its such a big file, my version of audacity would only let me export it as a WAV. file. I bet my friend Peter could turn it into a MP3!

  Dan


Hi Dan,

I turned it into MP3, but I'm running out the door and don't have time to upload it.  Ill be sure and get it up by this afternoon.

Jason
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dan9125
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2006, 09:12:28 AM »

Thanks Jason,
  Pretty tense moments last night, glad everything worked out ok.

 Dan
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dan9125
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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2006, 09:18:17 AM »

I found a link that shows her flight path. You can see it takes her right over Buffalo.


http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N1278Chttp://
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dan9125
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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2006, 09:24:28 AM »

Try this one....

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N1278C
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bcrosby
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2006, 11:38:10 AM »

Interesting how she regained control at 6500' which also happens to be 0C (freezing level)

I would have probably landed at the nearest airport and figure out why I wasn't paying attention to the icing.

I dont like how she was like "I have the auto pilot on now, everythings fine". Thats what probably got her in trouble in the first place.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2006, 03:03:08 PM »

Wow, Dan, another incredible clip!

Those damn Cessna Caravans have quite a terrible history with icing encounters.    The FAA is currently re-evaluating the known icing certification for the Caravan, due to several icing accidents over the last ten years.  

She is one lucky pilot.
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Regards, Peter
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2006, 03:06:46 PM »

Quote from: dan9125


Actually, that is not the track.  The tail ID was 1278L.

Here is the track history:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N1278L/history/20060423/2119Z/KEWK/KBGR/tracklog

While the graphic doesn't depict the dive, the track history from the link above shows the dive in the form of a major deviation of altitude.
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Regards, Peter
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2006, 03:13:30 PM »

Quote from: dan9125
Sorry its such a big file, my version of audacity would only let me export it as a WAV. file. I bet my friend Peter could turn it into a MP3!


Here is the MP3 file.  Not too much smaller, however:

* kbuf-apr-23-06-ice_791.mp3 (8969.45 KB - downloaded 1718 times.)
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Regards, Peter
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digger
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« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2006, 03:18:30 PM »

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I would of landed at the nearest airport. Maybe changed my shorts and continued flying the next morning if the weather was better.


Then, in addition to explaining the emergency situation, she'd have also have to explain to her boss why the cargo wasn't in Bangor on time. I'd bet that the majority of pilots in her situation (not just weather, but employer pressure), would have weighed the relative consequences, and electd to press on. (Ours is not to judge which would have been the better decision, although we can certainly speculate about what we'd have done personally.)

One has to wonder though, whether the airframe was subject to any excessive loads during the excursion. I'd certainly do a *thorough* preflight before the next takeoff....
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2006, 03:18:32 PM »

Quote from: dan9125
Sorry its such a big file, my version of audacity would only let me export it as a WAV. file.


Dan, to use Audacity to create MP3 files, simply copy this one DLL file attached here  into the Audacity program folder (unzip this file first, of course).  Relaunch Audacity and you will now have the option to produce MP3 files.

EDIT:  Cannot attach a ZIP here, Dan.  Send me your email address and I will email it to you.  (pjricc@gmailX.com - remove the capital letter)
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Regards, Peter
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dan9125
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« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2006, 03:22:36 PM »

I did see there was 2 similar flights and picked the wrong one. Check out the speed also, down to 106 knots!

 Dan
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dan9125
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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2006, 03:27:10 PM »

I found the file for audacity and now can make an MP3 file, thanks.

 Dan
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2006, 03:31:14 PM »

Quote from: dan9125
I did see there was 2 similar flights and picked the wrong one. Check out the speed also, down to 106 knots!


Based on her lengthy explanation near the end of the clip, my speculation is that she failed to use the pitot heat and failed to routinely cycle the boots to shed the ice from the leading edges as she cruised at 11,000 feet on her way up to Bangor.

The failure to use the boots is most likely what allowed the ice to build and result in a stall and the three 90 degree rolls she described, and her erroneously low airspeed indications that she screamed out during the emergency were probably due to an ice-blocked pitot tube rather than a slow aircraft.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
digger
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« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2006, 03:41:37 PM »

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I did see there was 2 similar flights and picked the wrong one. Check out the speed also, down to 106 knots!


That's the speed across the ground. In a 1200 fpm descent (which is how far she descended in that minute), the airspeed would certainly have gone up, not down. The ground speed is lower because she was moving down, instead of forward, so fast...
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Biff
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« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2006, 03:42:26 PM »

Sounds like she got into icing, and let the autopilot fly her into a stall.  She might have noticed before it got to that point if she'd been hand flying it.

Not that there's anything wrong with using an autopilot.  I sure would be.
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Jason
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« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2006, 05:05:29 PM »

Quote from: Biff
Sounds like she got into icing, and let the autopilot fly her into a stall.  She might have noticed before it got to that point if she'd been hand flying it.

Not that there's anything wrong with using an autopilot.  I sure would be.


No, you're right, Biff.  It is a recommended practice (studies by NASA have proved this) to always handfly the aircraft if flying in icing.  You can detect ice and remedy the issue a lot sooner than if the autopilot is flying the plane.

Unless your autopilot knows how to talk to you, hand-flying in icing conditions is a much better choice under most instances.
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dan9125
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« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2006, 05:10:42 PM »

I think the worst thing was that she didnt seam to know what was causing the problem, just that she suddenly lost controll.

 Dan
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flyer_d
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« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2006, 06:44:54 PM »

While the controller helped by staying calm, he really should have given her the groundspeed earlier (as soon as she said she was showing 80 kts, which would have helped her diagnose the (apparent) blocked pitot) and he never once gave her vectors to the nearest airport (saying "south-south-east" is only marginally helpful in that situation).

(I agree it also sounds like the pilot made some serious mistakes.)

A scary post.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2006, 06:55:54 PM »

Quote from: flyer_d
While the controller helped by staying calm, he really should have given her the groundspeed earlier (as soon as she said she was showing 80 kts, which would have helped her diagnose the (apparent) blocked pitot) and he never once gave her vectors to the nearest airport (saying "south-south-east" is only marginally helpful in that situation).


During the moments that the controller was calling out the nearest airports, the aircraft was still in an uncontrolled descent.  IMO, there really was nothing the controller could do to help the situation at that point, perhaps other than to be the calm voice at the other end.
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Regards, Peter
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flyer_d
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« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2006, 07:08:57 PM »

Quote
During the moments that the controller was calling out the nearest airports, the aircraft was still in an uncontrolled descent.  IMO, there really was nothing the controller could do to help the situation at that point, perhaps other than to be the calm voice at the other end.


Perhaps true, but I was noting that he "never once" gave her vectors -- even in the time between arresting the descent and saying that she would press on to Maine.  At that time, something like "nearest airport is 10 degrees right and 5 miles" would have been very helpful.

I'm not trying to dump on the controller -- he did a good job.  But it's always a good idea to try to learn from these events.
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flyer_d
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« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2006, 07:11:57 PM »

How come the quote is all screwed up?  It looked fine when I did the preview, but when I hit submit, it looked like that.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2006, 07:22:19 PM »

Quote from: Jason
No, you're right, Biff.  It is a recommended practice (studies by NASA have proved this) to always handfly the aircraft if flying in icing.  You can detect ice and remedy the issue a lot sooner than if the autopilot is flying the plane.


As an IFR pilot of a single-engine GA (general aviation) aircraft who flies in the Northeast US, let me offer a dissenting opinion based on experience:  

Regardless of whether the aircraft is known-ice (certified to fly into forecast icing conditions) or not, a proficient IFR GA pilot about to launch on an IFR flight will already know, thanks to proper preflight planning, that icing conditions might or will be encountered.   Hence, if icing conditions are suspected during the flight, the pilot must routinely scan the leading edges of the wing or horizontal stabilizer, or scan some other protrusion in order to see the first sign of ice build-up.  This is just as important as scanning the instruments for proper altitude, attitude, speeds, and heading.   At the first sign of ice build-up, the pilot must then respond by executing his/her already conceived plan to escape the ice build-up.

With this in mind, using the AP if the aircraft is so equipped is actually preferable since the AP will fly the aircraft and free up the pilot to both monitor the AP's performance (heading, alt, speed, etc) and scan for the first signs of ice formation.

Any IFR GA pilot who waits for reduced performance (aka feeling it in the hand flying of the aircraft) to confirm that ice build-up is occurring is just asking for an ice-induced episode like that which seems depicted in this audio clip.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
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