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Author Topic: anyone know whos kid that was at jfk tower today? what a joke  (Read 59693 times)
Robert Larson
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« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2010, 12:06:33 PM »

I don't understand all the apologists for this controller. This was a bad idea all the time. I was shocked when I first heard this recording here and wondered how many days it would be before there was an investigation. Now I know.

Why was it ok for this controller to have a non-sterile cab? We blamed the Colgan crash on non-sterile cockpit. The Hudson crash on a controller talking to his girlfriend. The mid-west mishap on pilots playing with their laptops... etc... etc... 

As someone who has studied Human Factors and Accident Reduction (in the power utility business) I have some understanding that any distraction can increase the chance for human error. The tower cab is no place to be running a day care.

That said, absolutely it's a great thing to bring your kid to work. At the power utility at which I worked they had a very rich program for bring your kid to work day. We took kids up in the bucket trucks. We gave a demonstration on the dangers of electricity (by instantly cooking hot dogs with high voltage lines -- fun!). We toured them through the power plant in a controlled way. We did not let them climb up a live pole, we didn't let them control the rods. You can bring your kid to work without actually having them do mission-critical work.

All in all this was a lapse in judgment. I think the controller should probably receive a warning or some small form of discipline. Let everyone learn from this. Maybe take it as an opportunity to implement some better controls on what can and can not go on in the tower.

Just my $.02 from an arm-chair wannabe private pilot.
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dylanh
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« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2010, 01:56:31 PM »

(in the power utility business)
Just my $.02 from an arm-chair wannabe private pilot.
Thanks.  But we have enough spare change thrown in by qualified individuals. 

The general concensus on most boards is that pilots and controllers just don't give a hoot.  And the folks who are getting their panties in a bunch are the folks like yourself....pretty much the same folks the media is targeting.

Lets break down this incident: Was the child CONTROLLING aircraft? No. The dad was. Was the kid parroting what his dad told him to say? Yes. Was this unprofessional? Slightly.....although the jetBlue crew seemed to not think so, nor did any other pilots on freq. Was the dad wearing a headset that he could have stepped in and corrected any stumbling the kid could have done? Yes...in a heartbeat. Did this incident happen at one of the slowest times at JFK? Yes. Would this have ever happened during a high-saturation time? Not in a million years. Was this unsafe? Not in the LEAST!!! Now, lets not generalize here, I wanna know from those of you who think it was unsafe WHY it was unsafe?

In one of the two aircraft I fly, the right seat is a PASSENGER seat. (PC-12).  Now, here is a non-qualified individual (lets pretend it's you), with a full set of controls in front of him, and his/her buddies in the back.  This can become an extremely distracting situation when the weather is good and workload is low, nevermind when the weather goes down and I'm on the arrival or departure into TEB.  But I take steps to mitigate the distraction including a full "sterile cockpit" briefing. And I will even utilize the right seat pax from time to time in assisting me with setting the right side altimeter, handing me charts, etc...

Now, here we are, fat dumb and happy in the high 20's.  I've turned his headset mic back on, and we are conversing normally. Workload is extremely low, the frequency is fairly dead.  Now, I anticipate a handoff to Atlanta Center, explain to my right seater that, shortly, we are going to get handed off to Atlanta center on 128.25.  At this point, he knows our callsign, has heard about 15-20 handoffs, and knows the jist of what to say.  I tell him: "As soon as center comes on and says 'Pilatus NXXXXX contact Atlanta Center now 128.25', push THAT little button and say '128.25 Pilatus NXXXXX'...ok?"  And he does it perfectly.  Lets say he stumbles a bit, or messes it up some how....WHAT NOW?  OH JESUS!!  WE'RE ALL DEAD!!!Oh, wait a minute, I have the overriding mic button and repeat the handoff in a nanosecond.

The above is pretty much the exact same thing that took place in the JFK tower cab last week.
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n07cfi
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« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2010, 02:17:51 PM »

Just a longtime lurker ... just want to say this has gotten too much attention by the ever-news hungry media.  I support the controller.

Let's propose to ban "take our sons/daughter day" and wipe it completely from our lives at this rate.  No more kids visiting YOUR place of work/office/home office/wherever.
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Texas-Cat
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« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2010, 02:54:42 PM »

I don't post much on here because I really don't often have anything to add beyond what everyone else is saying. This time I'm making an exception. Its the media that has made this into a major incident and the livelihood of a d*mn fine controller is now in jeopardy because of it. I'd be curious to know how many of the people on here that feel this controller should be crucified are actually pilots and have also been in the left seat of an aircraft at JFK? The controllers at this airport are some of the finest that can be found in the United States ATC system. To suggest that any one of them would intentionally act in a manner that would jeopardize the safety of the aircraft under their control is quite frankly offensive. Was the kid on the radio - yes he was. Was he EVER IN CONTROL OF ANY AIRCRAFT - NO HE WAS NOT. Pilots are trained to question and confirm any instruction that they feel could jeopardize the safety of their aircraft. Did anyone hear any question or concern from any of the pilots regarding what they were being told? No- you did not and the reason for that is obvious - they knew that the controller was right there and was actually the one issuing the instructions.

For the many media lurkers that are on here - why not bring that point out. Oh - I know why - its not newsworthy unless it can be skewed to appear to be scandalous.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 02:58:51 PM by Texas-Cat » Logged
tucraceman
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« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2010, 03:37:34 PM »

My God.   Why am I always surprised by how dumb the media is? I must not be so bright.
~D
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TC
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« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2010, 03:40:49 PM »

(in the power utility business)
Just my $.02 from an arm-chair wannabe private pilot.
Thanks.  But we have enough spare change thrown in by qualified individuals. 

The general concensus on most boards is that pilots and controllers just don't give a hoot.  And the folks who are getting their panties in a bunch are the folks like yourself....pretty much the same folks the media is targeting.


"...on most boards"  You might want to consider sources of info other than anonymous internet message boards.  NATCA issued a statement (hopefully they qualify as qualified individuals) that hardly indicates that controllers don't give a hoot, as you say.  It seems to me that the most visceral reactions are coming from those who are blaming the media and calling them names, and saying they are responsible for ruining someone's career.  I'd put that in the "panties in a bunch" camp.

I've heard a lot of more reasonable reactions, along the lines that the controller made a mistake and should not have done what he did.  But he's human and prone to mistakes.  That he did it 2 days indicates planning, so it wasn't just a rash decision.  The supe showed very poor judgment also.  Hopefully discipline will be meted out with compassion and sensibility.  Hopefully it becomes a lesson learned and nobody's career is ruined.  No bunched panties here, my friend.  Was safety compromised?  No.  Is there another issue?  Yes.  This incident gives people the opportunity to think controllers don't take their jobs seriously, and that's a black eye on the profession we can ill afford.  That's the problem with what was done.  All the analogies to other lines of work are red herrings.

Bottom line is, plenty of "qualified individuals" give a hoot.
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djxs
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« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2010, 04:26:20 PM »

We did not let them climb up a live pole, we didn't let them control the rods. You can bring your kid to work without actually having them do mission-critical work.

Because doing any of those things requires previous knowledge or skill.  Reciting some phrases back is not 'mission-critical' work, nor does it require any skill, kids learn to speak and mimic us at a very young age.   
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atcman23
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« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2010, 06:54:13 PM »

You're all right. FAA really needs to lighten up a little bit and if they don't want something like this to happen, shouldn't they ban all visitors to the control tower?

And that's exactly what they did... they banned all visitors to all FAA facilities until further notice.
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Mark Spencer
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« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2010, 08:27:46 PM »

Forgetting about the issue of children in the towers for the moment, which clearly happened...It just is not the case in the recording here. This recording is actually of a 41 year old woman and not at JFK. Hard to believe, I know, but it is true.   
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Robert Larson
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« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2010, 08:41:53 PM »

THAT little button and say '128.25 Pilatus NXXXXX'...ok?"  And he does it perfectly.  Lets say he stumbles a bit, or messes it up some how....WHAT NOW?  OH JESUS!!  WE'RE ALL DEAD!!!Oh, wait a minute, I have the overriding mic button and repeat the handoff in a nanosecond.

The above is pretty much the exact same thing that took place in the JFK tower cab last week.


And that's wrong to and you should be disciplined but that's not really my call as I don't pay your salary (unless I'm a pax). In the case of the controller I do pay his salary so I get a voice. I'm also a pax on planes he controls, so from that respect too.

As for running a non-sterile cockpit and having fun with your pax in the cockpit: see Aeroflot Flight 593. Nuff said.
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ishtar
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« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2010, 08:58:59 PM »

A sterile cockpit flying straight and level in the flight levels? That'd be one long and boring trip for the pilots.
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robertsham
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« Reply #86 on: March 05, 2010, 12:31:33 AM »

THAT little button and say '128.25 Pilatus NXXXXX'...ok?"  And he does it perfectly.  Lets say he stumbles a bit, or messes it up some how....WHAT NOW?  OH JESUS!!  WE'RE ALL DEAD!!!Oh, wait a minute, I have the overriding mic button and repeat the handoff in a nanosecond.

The above is pretty much the exact same thing that took place in the JFK tower cab last week.


And that's wrong to and you should be disciplined but that's not really my call as I don't pay your salary (unless I'm a pax). In the case of the controller I do pay his salary so I get a voice. I'm also a pax on planes he controls, so from that respect too.

As for running a non-sterile cockpit and having fun with your pax in the cockpit: see Aeroflot Flight 593. Nuff said.
Remember, the Aeroflot accident was cause by the child WHO holding the yoke in his hand WHICH can directly kill himself and other people, but in this case, the child is just acting like a messenger, correct me if I am wrong, your theory is that while the Controller is controlling through the microphone, actually, the traffic is controlling by the microphone, but not the ATC.
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coastflyfan
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« Reply #87 on: March 05, 2010, 04:38:39 AM »

You're all right. FAA really needs to lighten up a little bit and if they don't want something like this to happen, shouldn't they ban all visitors to the control tower?

And that's exactly what they did... they banned all visitors to all FAA facilities until further notice.

I always that that the FAA restricted visitors from all facilities permanently following the 9/11 attacks? Sorry if I am mistaken.
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Fred_Garvin
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« Reply #88 on: March 05, 2010, 08:56:16 AM »

Well put Mr Larson.

No one is to blame but the controller himself.

   Bring you kid to work day does not mean let your kid do your job day.  Accidents are almost never due to one single cause.  It makes no sense to add a wild card like a kid making transmissions no matter how well done to the mix.   

This blaming the media for blowing things out of proportion is misguided at best.   In what world would kids transmitting instructions on the radio at JFK not be news.    I still can't fathom what else the controller thought would happen.     
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djmodifyd
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« Reply #89 on: March 05, 2010, 10:53:22 AM »

You're all right. FAA really needs to lighten up a little bit and if they don't want something like this to happen, shouldn't they ban all visitors to the control tower?

And that's exactly what they did... they banned all visitors to all FAA facilities until further notice.

I always that that the FAA restricted visitors from all facilities permanently following the 9/11 attacks? Sorry if I am mistaken.

nope...we had tours all the time.
As of a couple days ago no visitors are allowed in the operating area's anymore, that is unless they have a work related purpose (IE, me going to a different facility and touring for some reason).
its the normal knee jerk reaction of the FAA...but the GENOT is only for 90 days, so thats when i assume normal tours will be allowed again
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djmodifyd
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« Reply #90 on: March 05, 2010, 10:54:42 AM »

Well put Mr Larson.

No one is to blame but the controller himself.

   Bring you kid to work day does not mean let your kid do your job day.  Accidents are almost never due to one single cause.  It makes no sense to add a wild card like a kid making transmissions no matter how well done to the mix.   

This blaming the media for blowing things out of proportion is misguided at best.   In what world would kids transmitting instructions on the radio at JFK not be news.    I still can't fathom what else the controller thought would happen.     

if you want to blame someone...you can also blame the CIC/SUP that allowed it to happen....
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robertsham
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« Reply #91 on: March 05, 2010, 11:18:19 AM »

Well put Mr Larson.

No one is to blame but the controller himself.

   Bring you kid to work day does not mean let your kid do your job day.  Accidents are almost never due to one single cause.  It makes no sense to add a wild card like a kid making transmissions no matter how well done to the mix.   

This blaming the media for blowing things out of proportion is misguided at best.   In what world would kids transmitting instructions on the radio at JFK not be news.    I still can't fathom what else the controller thought would happen.     
you may also blame the FAA for they didn't forbidden the children get close to the control panel, let say... 10CM?
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shakenama
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« Reply #92 on: March 05, 2010, 02:52:36 PM »

It's one thing to bring your kids to work to see what you do in the tower (which I think is great and commendable)... it's another to have him on the radio directing departing aircraft carrying 150+ passengers.

The FAA considers this unprofessional (even as the kid did a great job on the radio), but it's a possible distraction... one on which the FAA prohibits.

If this was a GA airport, and not an International one such as JFK (ave 70 flts/hr... PLUS the alternate traffic pattern due to the Bay Rwy closed ), it prob would've been overlooked
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ishtar
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« Reply #93 on: March 05, 2010, 05:17:28 PM »

Quote
PLUS the alternate traffic pattern due to the Bay Rwy closed
God, if the bay rwy (31L) was closed during this time, that'd be real news. Think before you post please.
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sykocus
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« Reply #94 on: March 05, 2010, 06:16:44 PM »

You're all right. FAA really needs to lighten up a little bit and if they don't want something like this to happen, shouldn't they ban all visitors to the control tower?

And that's exactly what they did... they banned all visitors to all FAA facilities until further notice.

I always that that the FAA restricted visitors from all facilities permanently following the 9/11 attacks? Sorry if I am mistaken.

nope...we had tours all the time.
As of a couple days ago no visitors are allowed in the operating area's anymore, that is unless they have a work related purpose (IE, me going to a different facility and touring for some reason).
its the normal knee jerk reaction of the FAA...but the GENOT is only for 90 days, so thats when i assume normal tours will be allowed again

while i hope you're right, i have a bad feeling that's just the length of the they're giving themselves to publish an official notice or worse yet, a change to the 7210.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 06:21:32 PM by sykocus » Logged

Yesterday I couldn't spell air traffic controller. Today I R one.
davalos08
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« Reply #95 on: March 05, 2010, 06:54:17 PM »

that kid really know how to talk on freq jejeje
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tucraceman
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« Reply #96 on: March 05, 2010, 08:34:28 PM »

I can't believe the amount of people who are not controllers or pilots who are ready to sacrifice this guy's career over this.  Angers me.
~D
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jimmyzmac
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« Reply #97 on: March 05, 2010, 09:04:16 PM »

Innocent and harmless? This time maybe. So it was all cute for daddy to have his 10 year old play on the headset and talk to pilots - even if repeating commands verbatim. Many are saying this is not a big deal, but this really is a BIG DEAL for one reason:

The pilots on the other end hearing a 10 year old child giving clearances, and actually following the commands without knowing who is issuing them. As a pilot, if I heard a little kid give me a command, I would immediately ask for the control tower supervisor...questioning the command I was given. I would have also questioned if the call even came from the tower, as anyone with an Icom handheld can key up and talk to pilots. This is what the first pilot should have done, then there would not have been four more correspondences.

Controller Daddy: Stupid stupid. Maybe this might be accepted in some remote podunk airfield, but at JFK? Dude - JFK!!! Sorry...I have no mercy.
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pgarside
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« Reply #98 on: March 05, 2010, 10:56:59 PM »



Lets say he stumbles a bit, or messes it up some how....WHAT NOW?  OH JESUS!!  WE'RE ALL DEAD!!!Oh, wait a minute, I have the overriding mic button and repeat the handoff in a nanosecond.

The above is pretty much the exact same thing that took place in the JFK tower cab last week.


Exactly!

Even more proof that every one of us who are pilots have experienced: Your first time on the frequency.  I can remember mine perfectly.  Even though I must have run through that taxi request and takeoff clearance a million times in my head, I completely butchered them both.  What happened? It got correct by my CFI, and the tower had a good laugh at my expence.  That is the worst that could have happened in this JFK situation.

Both of our situations were completely safe and (contrary to Mr. Larson's comment) completely legal.  Im sure you werent opperating commercially when your friend was in the right seat, so if you as PIC feel that it doesnt pose a threat to safety, letting your friend transmit over the radio is perfectly legal.

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beechsundowner
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« Reply #99 on: March 06, 2010, 08:36:41 AM »

On air conversation about JFK controller - Video



I wanted to go to a new airport.  While on KJAN approach frequency, discussion ensued about the recent incident at JFK.  It wouldn't surprise me that the feelings the approach controller conveyed in the video represented most ATC controllers.  I am also glad he didn't lose his style of personal style of handling traffic and humor smiley

6 minute video includes take off from KMBO, initial contact with approach and conversation above, landing KIDL and landing KMBO
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