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Author Topic: Asiana 214 Crash at KSFO  (Read 94844 times)
sykocus
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« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2013, 09:58:33 AM »

I am always dubious of the accuracy of flightaware's numbers in the track log especially when looking at such moment in time. However I was curious as to see what they looked like so I plotted them on google earth.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/152429/AAR214.kmz The square markers are AAR214. The round ones are ANA8 which landed just before AAR214. The last data plot on flightaware that shows AAR climbing plots out to be further down the runway then AAR ever came so I think it's safe to throw that one out completely. Google earth doesn't have an MSL setting for the altitude of the makers so they aren't 100% accurate relative to the map. It's best to simply compare the height to the others. In general take it all with a grain of salt.

Also I found the flight on planefinder.net. Unfortunately the altitude in the playback doesn't update very often and the tracking ends a few miles short of the runway so not much info can be gleaned from it either.
http://planefinder.net/flight/AAR214/time/2013-07-06T18:15:00%20UTC
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fholbert
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« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2013, 11:14:32 AM »

Except for maybe "I have a problem" and when he gives his call sign, utterly unintelligible to my ear. Seemed like tower couldn't salvage anything useful out of the coms either and just kept responding "emergency vehicles are on the way".  What a mess.

To me it sounds like Asiana 214 is saying trouble.
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ryannayr140
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« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2013, 11:48:59 AM »

He was slow, and should have asked for permission to talk on a busy frequency like United 85 did at 0:12. Let me be clear, this pilot, nor a lack of communication were the cause of this accident.
"Let me be clear" should usually be followed by something that is clear. huh
Sorry I just wanted to clarify that I'm not blaming this poor man for what happened.  He was trying his best, and his English was far better than the pilot of Asiana 214. 
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vectorboy
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« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2013, 02:07:56 PM »

Is there a clip of NORCAL issuing the visual approach? Would be curious to hear how far out they turned him, whether or not he was instructed to follow another aircraft and any speed restrictions that may have been issued.
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tyketto
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« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2013, 02:18:04 PM »

Is there a clip of NORCAL issuing the visual approach? Would be curious to hear how far out they turned him, whether or not he was instructed to follow another aircraft and any speed restrictions that may have been issued.

Pretty sure there is. Should be somewhere in the 1800Z-1900Z clips in the archives. Obviously, unabridged for this would be better.

BL.
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oktalist
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« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2013, 03:41:01 PM »

I think I've listened to all the SFO/NORCAL approach feed archives for 2013-07-06 1800z-1830z, haven't heard a single mention of Asiana 214, except for after the crash. Would appreciate knowing if you find anything.
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marc99
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« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2013, 04:02:04 PM »

We pretty much thought that that stepped on "go around!" transmission was from the Asiana 214 pilot.
That opinion was from a transcriptionist who was used to dealing with a lot of different voices. She thought that the "go around" and "I have trouble" were the same voice.

The "go around" transmission could have been at the controller's or the pilot's discretion - I've experienced both. 

She's was pretty sure about the two transmissions being the same voice and she's usually right about verbal discrimination.

But - it's a not a proven fact and doesn't change anything.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 04:43:38 PM by marc99 » Logged
dicksummer
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« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2013, 04:06:52 PM »

The pilot must have declared a Mayday, or the controller wouldn''t have said the crash trucks are on the way. On what basis did the pilot declare the emergency ?
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marc99
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« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2013, 04:09:35 PM »

I think "go around" and "I have trouble" is what Asiana 214 transmitted.
It seemed that if the controller had said "go around", the recording would have sounded differently.
When two radios are transmitting, you usually hear a background tone on the receiving side.
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marc99
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« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2013, 04:19:14 PM »

The pilot must have declared a Mayday, or the controller wouldn''t have said the crash trucks are on the way. On what basis did the pilot declare the emergency ?

Under the circumstances, with the accident occurring in direct view of the tower, the tower controller didn't wait for  formalities and, with full authority, called for emergency services.
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dicksummer
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« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2013, 04:44:15 PM »

Good answer. Thank you.That happened to me once at ISP.
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flyflyfly
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« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2013, 04:45:06 PM »

I think I've listened to all the SFO/NORCAL approach feed archives for 2013-07-06 1800z-1830z, haven't heard a single mention of Asiana 214, except for after the crash. Would appreciate knowing if you find anything.

Asiana checked in 13 minutes into the recording. But no further communication between NORCAL and Asiana is recorded after that. It's mentioned a few times when NORCAL advised other aircraft about traffic. The few related bits are attached.

* KSFO-App-28LR-Jul-06-2013-1800Z-Asiana214.mp3 (562.35 KB - downloaded 5512 times.)
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hburg
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« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2013, 04:51:55 PM »

Someone got the crash on video. Interesting video watching the approach, the impact, and the final rest.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
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tyketto
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« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2013, 04:56:37 PM »

Local NPR station KQED is currently broadcasting the report by the NTSB. They just read out the first audition of the CVR.

NCT cleared them for a visual approach to 28L. Field conditions were VMC with visibility being 10SM. As far as the runways go, 28L had the localizer in use, but glide slope was OTS. So ithad to be a visual approach. Approach speed was 157kts, flaps 30.

7 seconds before impact, call was given to increase speed. 4 seconds before impact, call from pilot to go around was given. Stick shaker started to happen 1.5 seconds before impact. Impact was directly on the sea wall and PAPIs. They have footage of the actual crash looping.

It's hard for me to go further into detail as I'm hearing this on the radio of KQED's report on its Sacramento station, KQEI.

If you want to listen in, hit up www.kqed.org.

EDIT: speed was 137kts, though preliminary info is stating that their speed was MUCH slower. NTSB's actual words. Call for more speed was at 7 seconds. Stick shaker at 1.5 seconds.

With the stick shaker, this tells me they were slow on speed and close to STALL.

BL.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 05:16:23 PM by tyketto » Logged
flyflyfly
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« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2013, 04:56:46 PM »

Crash video...


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dave
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« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2013, 04:56:54 PM »

Dave, this audio file has made it out into the wild without permission from you.  Additionally, many of these sources using the audio are not attributing the source.  However, I saw CNN properly attribute the source of the audio, but just wanted to make you aware.

Thanks...this happens from time to time.  We try to catch most of it but unfortunately many of the news agencies employ reporters and editors who never learned how to be real journalists.  They're all in a frenzy to beat each other by minutes, and sometimes professionalism goes by the wayside.
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RadarDude
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« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2013, 05:21:44 PM »

The NTSB has released some preliminary info via their twitter feed.

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RadarDude
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« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2013, 05:22:37 PM »

Part 2

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oktalist
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« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2013, 06:00:43 PM »

Asiana checked in 13 minutes into the recording. But no further communication between NORCAL and Asiana is recorded after that. It's mentioned a few times when NORCAL advised other aircraft about traffic. The few related bits are attached.

Thankyou very much.

Local NPR station KQED is currently broadcasting the report by the NTSB. They just read out the first audition of the CVR.

Thanks for the tip. Very interesting.

We pretty much thought that that stepped on "go around!" transmission was from the Asiana 214 pilot.
That opinion was from a transcriptionist who was used to dealing with a lot of different voices. She thought that the "go around" and "I have trouble" were the same voice.

The "go around" transmission could have been at the controller's or the pilot's discretion - I've experienced both.

Thanks for this perspective, but it just confuses the hell out of me. I don't hear anyone call go around until well after the crash. It doesn't make sense, why would one of the Asiana pilots call go around to another aircraft on frequency, when they should be busy with their evacuation checklist? If we're talking about the call that is stepped on by Skyhawk 737, I'd say that's most likely either a controller or Skywest 6389.

And I don't hear "I have trouble". More like "San Fran tower, Asiana 214," and a little later, "Tower are you listening?" I've noticed that this particular archived LiveATC feed occasionally cuts out partial syllables and sometimes whole words, and in some cases we might not even notice when it's happened. If you compare it with the tower transmissions from the other feed (the one that combines tower and ground) there are some clear discrepancies, parts of tower transmissions that were not captured on the main feed. And unfortunately most of Asiana's transmissions were not captured on the combined feed because ground happened to be talking at the same time.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 06:03:47 PM by oktalist » Logged
oktalist
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« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2013, 06:35:06 PM »

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/152429/AAR214.kmz
Google earth doesn't have an MSL setting for the altitude of the makers so they aren't 100% accurate relative to the map.

Save as .kml instead of .kmz, then edit the file in a text editor. Replace >relativeToGround< with >absolute<.
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marc99
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« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2013, 06:45:55 PM »

The first "go around" is heard in the "short" mp3 at the beginning of this thread. It's short, has a background tone and def not the tower controller. It's just before the controller's "emergency vehicle" transmissions.
It's not as loud as the controller's transmissions and, if it's not Asiana 214 (which was our guess), it sounds like another plane transmitting in the blind, maybe to Asiana 214 or another plane. Or another plane on final announcing that they were going to "go around".
If the "short" mp3 is only the tower, then the only planes on tower freq are inbound for landing, outbound just after takeoff or those cleared for takeoff or holding short, waiting for takeoff.

Good tip about KMZ and KML files.
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justapilot
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« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2013, 07:05:06 PM »


We pretty much thought that that stepped on "go around!" transmission was from the Asiana 214 pilot.
...

Thanks for this perspective, but it just confuses the hell out of me. I don't hear anyone call go around until well after the crash. It doesn't make sense, why would one of the Asiana pilots call go around to another aircraft on frequency, when they should be busy with their evacuation checklist?
...

I agree the first "go around" call at 0:46 is probably the Asiana pilot, who in this event would be self-declaring his intention to 'go around' to the tower (i.e. it's not a command to another aircraft) just prior to the crash.

After listening to both this and the "real-time" tape, I amend my comments.  There is a voice in the background at 0:41 on this track that appears at 3:58 in the real-time track saying something to the effect of "dunno what happened over there".  I assume that means the crash has already occurred.  Not sure who then is calling "go around" at 0:46, but it seems too clearly spoken to be the Asiana pilot.  It could be Skywest 6389 as it would make some sense that the tower would come back with heading and altitude instructions for the go around.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 07:25:03 PM by justapilot » Logged
oktalist
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« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2013, 07:28:53 PM »

That short clip has been edited, it has had the long silences removed. You are right, I can now hear two sides of a conversation going on while Skyhawk 737 is stepping on them both, so to my ear probably the controller first, then Skywest 6389 reading back. I think I can just about make out the callsign Skywest 6389 on the end of it. But in the original archived feed, this happens a full ten seconds after someone in the tower shouts "what happened over there?"
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 07:31:43 PM by oktalist » Logged
ryannayr140
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« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2013, 07:52:33 PM »

I thought it was tower that said "Go around" because it sounded more like a command rather than an announcement, but after listening to it again the remnants of a call sign after the "go around" call make it seem like a pilot was speaking and not the controller. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 07:54:32 PM by ryannayr140 » Logged
sykocus
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« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2013, 07:58:46 PM »

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/152429/AAR214.kmz
Google earth doesn't have an MSL setting for the altitude of the makers so they aren't 100% accurate relative to the map.

Save as .kml instead of .kmz, then edit the file in a text editor. Replace >relativeToGround< with >absolute<.
I did see that setting but wasn't sure what they measure absolute "from" so I used "relative to ground since most of the plots are over the water anyway.
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