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Author Topic: Asiana 214 Crash at KSFO  (Read 53500 times)
marc99
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« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2013, 06:45:55 PM »

The first "go around" is heard in the "short" mp3 at the beginning of this thread. It's short, has a background tone and def not the tower controller. It's just before the controller's "emergency vehicle" transmissions.
It's not as loud as the controller's transmissions and, if it's not Asiana 214 (which was our guess), it sounds like another plane transmitting in the blind, maybe to Asiana 214 or another plane. Or another plane on final announcing that they were going to "go around".
If the "short" mp3 is only the tower, then the only planes on tower freq are inbound for landing, outbound just after takeoff or those cleared for takeoff or holding short, waiting for takeoff.

Good tip about KMZ and KML files.
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justapilot
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« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2013, 07:05:06 PM »


We pretty much thought that that stepped on "go around!" transmission was from the Asiana 214 pilot.
...

Thanks for this perspective, but it just confuses the hell out of me. I don't hear anyone call go around until well after the crash. It doesn't make sense, why would one of the Asiana pilots call go around to another aircraft on frequency, when they should be busy with their evacuation checklist?
...

I agree the first "go around" call at 0:46 is probably the Asiana pilot, who in this event would be self-declaring his intention to 'go around' to the tower (i.e. it's not a command to another aircraft) just prior to the crash.

After listening to both this and the "real-time" tape, I amend my comments.  There is a voice in the background at 0:41 on this track that appears at 3:58 in the real-time track saying something to the effect of "dunno what happened over there".  I assume that means the crash has already occurred.  Not sure who then is calling "go around" at 0:46, but it seems too clearly spoken to be the Asiana pilot.  It could be Skywest 6389 as it would make some sense that the tower would come back with heading and altitude instructions for the go around.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 07:25:03 PM by justapilot » Logged
oktalist
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« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2013, 07:28:53 PM »

That short clip has been edited, it has had the long silences removed. You are right, I can now hear two sides of a conversation going on while Skyhawk 737 is stepping on them both, so to my ear probably the controller first, then Skywest 6389 reading back. I think I can just about make out the callsign Skywest 6389 on the end of it. But in the original archived feed, this happens a full ten seconds after someone in the tower shouts "what happened over there?"
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 07:31:43 PM by oktalist » Logged
ryannayr140
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« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2013, 07:52:33 PM »

I thought it was tower that said "Go around" because it sounded more like a command rather than an announcement, but after listening to it again the remnants of a call sign after the "go around" call make it seem like a pilot was speaking and not the controller. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 07:54:32 PM by ryannayr140 » Logged
sykocus
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« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2013, 07:58:46 PM »

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/152429/AAR214.kmz
Google earth doesn't have an MSL setting for the altitude of the makers so they aren't 100% accurate relative to the map.

Save as .kml instead of .kmz, then edit the file in a text editor. Replace >relativeToGround< with >absolute<.
I did see that setting but wasn't sure what they measure absolute "from" so I used "relative to ground since most of the plots are over the water anyway.
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Yesterday I couldn't spell air traffic controller. Today I R one.
marc99
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« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2013, 08:23:26 PM »

I thought it was tower that said "Go around" because it sounded more like a command rather than an announcement, but after listening to it again the remnants of a call sign after the "go around" call make it seem like a pilot was speaking and not the controller.  

When a pilot says "go around" or going around" it is an informational statement for the controller and other aircraft.
It can sound relaxed to intense, depending of what's going on.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 09:25:12 PM by marc99 » Logged
oktalist
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« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2013, 09:01:34 PM »

A go around is not an emergency and does not get you priority.
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marc99
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« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2013, 09:08:28 PM »

You are right - What was I thinking? A "go around" is not usually an emergency.

I was thinking "go around" and declaring an emergency together.

And I should have kept the "emergency" example more separated.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 09:28:03 PM by marc99 » Logged
svoynick
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« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2013, 09:17:37 PM »

In light - when a pilot says "going around" it IS a command. If I say "going around", the controller's primary job is now working for my passengers, me and my airplane.
I can take a C-150 Cessna, declare an emergency and shut down JFK if in my opinion, JFK is the safest place for me to land.
There might be some questions asked later, but every pilot has that authority.
Agreed.  {Edited to add:  I completely agree with oktalist's subsequent point separating the concept of go-around and declaration of emergency.}

Another interesting thing: the headline on the CNN site says

NTSB: Pilots asked to do a 'go-around' 1.5 seconds before impact

No, the NTSB didn't say that.  The quote from the NTSB's Deborah Hersman says that they "called to initiate go-around", but this was in a section of the press conference where she was referring to CVR and FDR information.  So we all know that when she says they "called to initiate," she's probably referring to a pilot ordering it for the cockpit crew to carry it out.  But CNN turned that into a headline that makes it sound like they made a request, as if to ATC.  

And if that's not convincing enough, a paragraph farther down in the story says:

For example, she said, the increase of power in the engines appears to correlate with the cockpit crew's request to "go-around," a call to abort the landing and try it again.

Note, Hersman didn't call it a "request" to go-around, that's CNN's interpretation, and now also probably most readers' understanding of how things happened.  I hope people don't end up thinking "Gee, if ATC had only approved that request right away, they might have been OK..."  It very much skews one's understanding of the situation.

I'm not so naive that I'm shocked when the press gets technical details wrong (I'm an engineer, and I see science and engineering issues mangled all the time...) but it's still unfortunate.  The CNN story seems to be generating around a thousand comments per hour, so I'm not inclined to wade into that typically chaotic fray and get dragged into discussions of conspiracies, political parties, and the like.  

Just thought I'd vent with folks who would understand.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 09:27:42 PM by svoynick » Logged
hburg
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« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2013, 10:58:04 PM »

Is it true that the pilot landing the plane was in training and that it was his first landing a 777? If so, feel bad for the guy and of course all those involved. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/08/us-asiana-korea-idUSBRE96701620130708
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denverpilot
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« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2013, 12:09:58 AM »

First landing at SFO. Not first landing. And everyone lands them in the simulator numerous times in worse conditions before doing the real thing.
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ATCzero
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« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2013, 12:44:30 AM »

higher quality crash video.




At first I thought it was the controller saying "go around", but listening again, I'm not sure.
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en route air traffic controller at ZLA
Eric M
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« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2013, 12:51:31 AM »

Here's more on the status of the pilot flying, from the San Jose Mercury-News:

Asiana Airlines President Yoon Young-doo apologized to victims and their families, and defended the South Korean pilots as "skilled" veterans. But a spokeswoman for the airlines said later that while pilot Lee Kang-kook had nearly 10,000 hours of flying experience, he only had 43 hours with the Boeing 777, still was in training for the long-range plane and was making his first flight into SFO on that aircraft.
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sykocus
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« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2013, 03:13:37 AM »

It looks like they were lucky not have rolled overed over after impact.
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saper
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« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2013, 06:50:38 AM »

Hi,

I have posted the (short) clip to Wikimedia Commons (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AAR214-KSFO-Crash.ogg) as well as the transcript based on  the ryannayr140 post earlier in this thread. This way they can be edited and improved by everyone , by editing subtitle page (I have used http://universalsubtitles.org).

I tried to get all the attributions right, let me know if I can improve,

--saper
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