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Author Topic: ask a pilot/controller  (Read 15070 times)
JBnut
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« on: November 26, 2007, 07:34:35 PM »

I'm an Air Traffic Controller got a question for an IFR rated pilot... when we give a traffic call and you observe traffic on TCAS, does that constitute traffic in sight? Sometimes when I give traffic calls the pilot says "roger, got him on TCAS"  but I don't think they realize that until they say the magic words "in sight"  I have to keep giving updates on traffic. Just wondering..

Thanx
    JB
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fholbert
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 07:37:05 PM »

I clearly understand that. I've wondered why someone hasn't put that in the AIM

Frank Holbert
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« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 07:39:16 PM by fholbert » Logged

Frank Holbert
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tyketto
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 07:42:11 PM »

JB, you would be absolutely correct here. Take for example if you were working Final Approach for a given airport, and you are sequencing someone for a visual approach. You give the traffic call, and they say "We got him on TCAS". You wouldn't be able to tell your pilot to follow the traffic and clear him for the approach, because they don't have visual contact on the traffic.

So yes, if you don't hear 'in sight', you're to keep giving them the updates on it, and if the other traffic is under your control, point out the traffic to them too..

BL.
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JBnut
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 07:51:48 PM »

You must be a ATCer as well BL? preshunate it!! You don't happen to know a REF for it do you?  You know us ATCer's always challenging each other. Just want to prove to fellow troller.  if not no worries thax!!


JB
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cessna157
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 08:25:34 PM »

JB, just curious here.  What type of controller are you?  ARTCC?  TRACON?

Reason I ask is some center controllers will issue traffic advisories to us up at FL300 for traffic that is +/-1000 feet, while some don't.  I understand that this is not a required traffic advisory at all, and that it is much more of a courtesy call.  Just wondering if it is done workload permitting basis, controller's prerogative, etc....
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 08:33:16 PM »

I'm an Air Traffic Controller got a question for an IFR rated pilot... when we give a traffic call and you observe traffic on TCAS, does that constitute traffic in sight?

What gets me even more is when one of my GA brethren responds with that answer and the device he/she is using is most likely a Mode S transponder with TIS (uplinked traffic from certain radar sites) or one of those really cheap portable devices, not a top dollar TCAS unit. 

My Bonanza is equipped with the Mode-S/TIS unit and I have seen cases where the traffic on the display lagged real-time.  I have also seen where the two matched perfectly but I still would never claim "I have him on TCAS."

So there's my answer, now a question to you:  When I reply 'Negative Traffic' does it help you to know when I am IMC as well?  Or is this information irrelevant?  I do admit to including that fact and yes, I am perfectly aware that you are in a dark, windowless room and have no clue where IMC begins and ends, but it seems relevant to me.

Or how about this somewhat jovial question:  Why is it when I call for my clearance by stating, "BlahBlah clearance, Bonanza XXX, IFR to Buffalo with information Bravo," do controllers seem to immediately respond with, "Do you have the latest information Bravo?"   Um.... Okay.  It seems to happen quite regularly.




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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
tyketto
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 09:05:10 PM »

You must be a ATCer as well BL? preshunate it!! You don't happen to know a REF for it do you?  You know us ATCer's always challenging each other. Just want to prove to fellow troller.  if not no worries thax!!


JB

In a sense, yes. Smiley

Here's your reference. 7110.65R, section 7-4-3:
Quote
7-4-3. CLEARANCE FOR VISUAL APPROACH

ARTCCs and approach controls may clear aircraft for visual approaches using the following procedures:

a. Controllers may initiate, or pilots may request, a visual approach even when an aircraft is being vectored for an instrument approach and the pilot subsequently reports:

1. The airport or the runway in sight at airports with operating control towers.

2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower.

b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an overtaking aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed difference, and ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or that the pilot has been informed that weather is not available for the destination airport. Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency to receive weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available.

c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:

1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or

2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or

NOTE-
The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight.

3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual separation is provided.

d. All aircraft following a heavy jet/B757 must be informed of the airplane manufacturer and model.

Also, reference 7-2-1, Visual Separation. That also mandates that you hear a response in the affirmative for pointing out traffic. Saying "I have him on TCAS" is not visually in the affirmative.

BL.
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flyflorida2001
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2007, 09:09:53 PM »

I'm an Air Traffic Controller got a question for an IFR rated pilot... when we give a traffic call and you observe traffic on TCAS, does that constitute traffic in sight? Sometimes when I give traffic calls the pilot says "roger, got him on TCAS"  but I don't think they realize that until they say the magic words "in sight"  I have to keep giving updates on traffic. Just wondering..

Thanx
    JB

I'm a 121 regional FO, here's my take.  If I have a visual on the traffic, I will call it as such.  If I don't have him visually, but I do have him on the TCAS, I normally say just that to let you (ATC) know that while I don't have a visual, I do know where he is and am keeping an eye on the situation/am looking for him out the window.  The modern TCAS is pretty good at giving you an idea of where he is so that you can narrow your scan down to a very small area, thus allowing you to vpot the traffic much quicker.  Not sure if this is the answer you are looking for or not...but there you have it.
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JBnut
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2007, 09:14:21 PM »

N157 I'm currently a Tower controller but have spent a little time in a TRACON  and ARTCC.  as for your traffic call question it's a little of all the above.  we give it workload permitting/ controller perogitive ect... it all depends on the situation.  When we are staring at the radar our plans for what we want to do constantly change do to a # of variables that can come up.  For instance if I'm talking to you at FL300 and the Aircraft below you at FL290 both obviously radar identified and my plan is to desend you through his altitude I "personally" want to make sure you see him before you desend, see him and think I didn't know what I was doing.  That's just my way of thinking (perogitive) We are taught to verbally paint you a picture so you know whats going on around you.

Long story short just depends on the controller working.. Hope that helps you in your understanding behind the scenes......Safe flight
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RV1
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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2007, 09:48:27 PM »

In joking, and off frequency, we will say "maintain TCAS seperation with", but having an a'c on TCAS does nothing for us. Until you actually have the aircraft in sight and have been told to maintain visual seperation with, we will use another form of seperation. Sorry, but having him on TCAS aint worth squat.
   As for controller passing tfc that is 1000' above or below and will converge or be very close, we are required to. It is normally a preventive measure so that when you actually do look out the window, see this other airplane that 'looks' like he's at the same altitude, and aimed at you, you aren't a little shocked because you've already been informed of the tfc.
  Yes, if you are IMC, and therefore won't be able to get an a'c visually, let us know. As you are aware, we don't have windows and therefore can't tell where you are in relation to any clouds.
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zmeatc
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2007, 10:20:11 PM »

JB, just curious here.  What type of controller are you?  ARTCC?  TRACON?

Reason I ask is some center controllers will issue traffic advisories to us up at FL300 for traffic that is +/-1000 feet, while some don't.  I understand that this is not a required traffic advisory at all, and that it is much more of a courtesy call.  Just wondering if it is done workload permitting basis, controller's prerogative, etc....

The way I've been told is if the two targets are converging and =+/- 1000 feet must give a call for traffic. Any other scenario is at controller discretion. If pilot says "traffic not in sight/have traffic on TCAS" You tell the aircraft "traffic no longer a factor." This is just how my training team wants me to do it.
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JBnut
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2007, 10:37:28 PM »

KSYR- to your question ref IMC in sight...  I know it sounds stupid but we have regs (thanks to BL) that say we must continue to give you the traffic calls until you say in sight.  I know it's stupid if the weather is IMC but it's pretty much the same as; I don't know if you ever heard a tower controller say "check wheels down" to a cessna with fixed gear or worse even a skid mounted heli..  We always get laughed at.  Per the reg we a required to give it.

as for the CD question We are unfortunatly creatures of habit.  we have a bunch of flight progress strips with a lot of different call signs.  I know what happens when I've worked is you call up Blah blah clearance Bonanza XXX as soon as you say that I'm looking through my whole lot of strips and blocking out everything else you say.  So to cover my butt I have to confirm you have the Numbers. it pretty much becomes Phraseology. "Bonanza XXX verify you have information (a-z) and advise ready to copy clearance"  
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davolijj
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2007, 10:57:43 PM »

 For instance if I'm talking to you at FL300 and the Aircraft below you at FL290 both obviously radar identified and my plan is to desend you through his altitude I "personally" want to make sure you see him before you desend, see him and think I didn't know what I was doing.

If you take him through the traffic's altitude at any less than five miles without a passing report procedure, than you don't know what you're doing.  Obviously you can't use visual at those altitudes and at five miles minimum he probably won't see him.

Quote from: zmeatc
The way I've been told is if the two targets are converging and =+/- 1000 feet must give a call for traffic. Any other scenario is at controller discretion. If pilot says "traffic not in sight/have traffic on TCAS" You tell the aircraft "traffic no longer a factor." This is just how my training team wants me to do it.

7110.65   5-1-8 Merging Target Procedures
b. Issue traffic information to those aircraft listed in subpara a whose targets appear likely to merge unless the aircraft are separated by more than the appropriate vertical separation minima.

7110.65  2-1-21 Traffic Advisories
8. Inform the pilot of the following when traffic you have issued is not reported in sight:

(a) The traffic is no factor.

(b) The traffic is no longer depicted on radar.

PHRASEOLOGY-
TRAFFIC NO FACTOR/NO LONGER OBSERVED

I think there is a little misunderstanding about this prargraph.  Just because the aircraft reports "traffic not in sight" does not mean you tell him traffic no factor.  As long as it IS a factor you continue to issue traffic advisories until it is no longer a factor, then inform the aircraft that traffic is no longer a factor.

As for PJ's question about Clearance Delivery...you've been flying out of SYR too much.  You probably woke the clearance guy up and he didn't hear the part about you having Bravo.
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Regards
JD
JBnut
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2007, 11:05:20 PM »

Damn dave,  You know you can't tell another controller he doesn't know what he's doing.....lol I guess I should of paid attention to what I'm saying. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 11:08:01 PM by JBnut » Logged
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 07:48:41 AM »

As for PJ's question about Clearance Delivery...you've been flying out of SYR too much.  You probably woke the clearance guy up and he didn't hear the part about you having Bravo.

Ouch!  Smiley    Is that why one of the approach controllers yesterday thanked a GA pilot for practicing a few instrument approaches and included, "We need the approaches here?"

Actually, IFR Magazine often includes that particular ATIS communications gaffe in their articles about ATC (usually as a joke).
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
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