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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2007, 06:17:09 PM »

That's a fair point, Peter. However, when I worked up in the local tower/TRACON, i was allowed to "help" out in the CD position with a trainer (which was pretty cool). Very rarely did I have an airliner say, "Clearance, EGF656 IFR to ORD with papa." Usually it was something like, "EGF656, O'Hare, uh...papa."

Two points while you await your answer from a controller: 

1)  Obviously airliners cannot fly VFR (at least in the US) so it seems to follow that hearing an airline name on initial call-up automatically indicates IFR.   For GA, anything goes.

2)  Airline pilots are not immune from incorrect communications procedures, as I am sure you can agree.  Smiley  Don Brown used an example of this whereby an airline pilot left off too much information and blended all numbers into one call-up, as in "Ninety eight eleven twenty three eighty nine."

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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
tyketto
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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2007, 06:33:03 PM »

I guess I'm directing this to the guys who work the busy airports (not necessarily JFK, but those where you might find GA). Do you guys know that most are going to be operating IFR and can do without the "IFR to..." or "clearance to..."?

Thanks,


Well, as we all know, all commercial flights are IFR, so that eliminates a lot. Most of those pilots tend to make it short and sweet, like "Clearance, Cactus 456 going to Charlotte with November" to even shorter, like "Southwest 405, Omaha, Alpha", and that's it.

GA... it depends, and I'd say on location more than anything. When I went down to KLAS and listened in, they could have gone either way, but most of them being IFR. Those that were VFR just wanted clearance out of Class B Airspace, while the bulk of them avoided KLAS altogether, opting for flights into KVGT and KHND So it really all depends on what smaller fields their are that can feed off the main arrivals into the big fields. Example: KTEB and KCDW for the JFK/LGA/EWR in the New York area.

But in smaller places, like OKC or OMA or others in the Midwest USA, you may see a that ratio evened out, where half is IFR, and the other VFR.

BL.
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Greg01
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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2007, 06:56:27 PM »

Thanks,

I know at BUF one could look through the entire stack of strips in the time it takes the airplane to identify himself. It's very rare that I would drop my transmission to the example I gave a couple posts up, but I do find them varying.

Peter, great article...thanks! I knew that someone was going to say something about my example only containing an airliner!  Wink

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w0x0f
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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2007, 07:33:15 PM »

I used to read Don's articles on Avweb religiously but I lost touch after he retired from ATC and took a break from writing them.

Peter, you can catch up with Don at his blog http://gettheflick.blogspot.com/
He's not writing the same type of material, but he approaches other aspects of aviation and ATC that he was unable to discuss while employed by the FAA. 

w0x0f
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RV1
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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2007, 07:51:30 PM »

Most controllers would prefer you to state whether IFR or not. I know of one deal assigned to a controller due to a pilot stating he was 'southbound' when he requested taxi. She didn't know he already had his clearance from CD. She gave the vfr strip to local, who departed the aircraft without a release.     
      Additionally, with the new and improved Lockmart FSS, many flightplans are NOT in the system, so CD wouldn't have seen them yet. If you add in the factor of a lot of GA aircraft, new person on position, strip printer running out of paper, etc., too much is left for guess work on whether or not you're IFR or VFR.
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Greg01
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« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2007, 08:12:59 PM »

Never thought of that, but I should have. I was in FOK, I had filed three times over the phone after I was told by CD that my flight plan was in the system (even after having the briefer tell me that it should be). After the fourth time, I was p-o'ed and the controller wasn't too happy that he had to punch one in for me.

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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2007, 09:26:51 AM »

Peter, you can catch up with Don at his blog http://gettheflick.blogspot.com/
He's not writing the same type of material, but he approaches other aspects of aviation and ATC that he was unable to discuss while employed by the FAA. 

Very cool.   Thanks for the link. 
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
moto400ex
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« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2007, 01:08:49 PM »

Never thought of that, but I should have. I was in FOK, I had filed three times over the phone after I was told by CD that my flight plan was in the system (even after having the briefer tell me that it should be). After the fourth time, I was p-o'ed and the controller wasn't too happy that he had to punch one in for me.



Ever since the outsourcing of flight service and the several flight plans "lost" I never use flight service for filing.  I always use DUATS and have never "lost" a flight plan since its a direct way of filing.
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Greg01
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« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2007, 03:31:04 PM »

Well, I had no choice. I always use DUATS when I have an internet connection. The FOK had some fancy wx briefing station, but you had to subscribe to the "supplier" (I think is was WSI wx or something like that) to be able to file flight plans. They had no internet. I didn't trust the program, having never used it before, so that flight planning session was done all over the phone. Kind of made me mad that I had to call them so many times and it still didn't work!

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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2007, 03:34:44 PM »

Ever since the outsourcing of flight service and the several flight plans "lost" I never use flight service for filing.  I always use DUATS and have never "lost" a flight plan since its a direct way of filing.

Fly for Angel Flight and you will encounter times when you have no choice.   Volunteer pilots who fly organ transplant patients on a moment's notice often have to file/receive a briefing from flight service while driving to the airport.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
moto400ex
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« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2007, 03:42:25 PM »

Ever since the outsourcing of flight service and the several flight plans "lost" I never use flight service for filing.  I always use DUATS and have never "lost" a flight plan since its a direct way of filing.

Fly for Angel Flight and you will encounter times when you have no choice.   Volunteer pilots who fly organ transplant patients on a moment's notice often have to file/receive a briefing from flight service while driving to the airport.

Thats true... I guess im spoiled at my school we have computers right next to the ramp for our planes and have to use them so filing is just done there but other times yes calling is the only option, it just never works for me.
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aviator_06
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« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2007, 06:28:41 PM »

I can say I learned something today. That was some very good information.
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