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Author Topic: ATC at LAS I am not a pilot  (Read 31740 times)
rickeyy
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« on: July 12, 2008, 03:51:53 PM »

KLAS-Jul-12-2008-1730Z.mp3
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2008, 04:00:55 PM »

Help a brother out here and post the approximate minute mark within that 30 minute clip where this was said.  Smiley
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rickeyy
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2008, 04:05:28 PM »

I got the clip on the PC but do not know how to post it Thought I did it right
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rickeyy
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2008, 04:14:06 PM »

I think this is it

* KLAS-Jul-12-2008-1730Z.mp3 (3703.25 KB - downloaded 6227 times.)
* KLAS-Jul-12-2008-1730Z.mp3 (3703.25 KB - downloaded 2226 times.)
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moto400ex
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2008, 09:11:32 PM »

Ok so the clip is 31:36 long.  Where in the clip is this "incident"?
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moto400ex
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2008, 09:19:33 PM »

OK so I think its the part which starts around 21:00. 
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Hollis
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2008, 11:26:06 AM »

If you listen to earlier portions, you'll hear where N317DJ is apparently having navigation problems. Tries to blame it on his lack of equipment!
The aircraft is an Eclipse Aviation EA500 'microjet' (as the controller called it).
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KB6HLM
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 03:59:44 AM »

WOW

That guy sounds like someone flying on (VATSIM)!  LOL  grin 

The fun starts after 16:00 on the tape

Transcript
"ya I understand sir and we could have if we where given permission to intercept one of those radials to go right to clarr off the radial but we don't have R-NAV yet"

Hello ? "we don't have R-NAV yet"  Are you sure you didn't record this off vatsim ?? LOL

O-BOY I am glad I was not on that flight !
thanks for the recording

Now if I could only stop laughing  grin grin grin grin grin

73
KB6HLM
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Live webcam www.camradio.net


 

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cessna157
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2008, 07:31:15 AM »

Somebody is in error here.  It is either the controller or the pilot.  RNAV is part of the equipment suffix.  So either the controller thought they had RNAV (more on this in a sec) or the pilot incorrectly filed his aircraft as having RNAV or GPS.


The controller's advice at the 16:00 minute mark about finding the intersection is completely incorrect.  The intersection may be defined by LAS and DAG radials.  But he says you don't need RNAV to go direct to that point, which is absolutely wrong.  That's the definition of RNAV, to be able to go direct to a point without flying the radial.  The pilot is correct saying that if he was given direct to LAS or DAG, or given a vector to intercept one of the radials, they would have been able to fly over the intersection.

The SWA pilot later in the clip is incorrect in saying that he could have done it.  That actually confuses me, as the SWA pilot has no idea what the eclipse is equipped with.

Part of the problem is controllers have gotten used to jet aircraft having DME-DME RNAVs or GPS and being able to send them where ever they wanted.  Center controllers are used to this as NWA DC-9s are not capable.


Does anyone else know of a way to fly directly to an intersection without RNAV/GPS?
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Jason
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2008, 08:44:34 AM »

Does anyone else know of a way to fly directly to an intersection without RNAV/GPS?

ESP.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2008, 09:01:26 AM »

Somebody is in error here.  It is either the controller or the pilot.  RNAV is part of the equipment suffix.  So either the controller thought they had RNAV (more on this in a sec) or the pilot incorrectly filed his aircraft as having RNAV or GPS.

I have been experiencing this scenario in reverse a lot these days.  I always file IFR in a BE35/G  (for those unaware, /G is RNAV/GPS equipment suffix), but many times I will receive the following instruction from ATC just after departing:

"Bonanza XXX, turn left 150, when receiving Rockdale VOR, direct Rockdale." 

One time I replied to this by stating that I was a "slant Golf" and was direct Rockdale at this time, but the controller didn't acknowledge the discrepancy.

In any regard, good observation.

Does anyone else know of a way to fly directly to an intersection without RNAV/GPS?

Loran?
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cessna157
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2008, 01:02:39 PM »

Loran?

That's not IFR.  Controller could never ask you to do it legally.  Plus, that'd be part of an RNAV suffix
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2008, 01:25:54 PM »

That's not IFR.  Controller could never ask you to do it legally.  Plus, that'd be part of an RNAV suffix

Being a pilot who came to this party officially in early 2002, I know absolutely nothing about Loran (other than skipping over those pretty and colorful pages in the AIM).  I had meant a smiley on that comment but sent it up too fast to catch that I was missing it.
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Regards, Peter
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WWW310
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2008, 03:24:51 PM »

"But he says you don't need RNAV to go direct to that point, which is absolutely wrong"

Well now thats funny as we here at Janet are given direct to (well you know) all the time without radials to or from any VOR   and as you may have known we file as TYPE A

Now as to flying to a intersection without RNAV  You bet ya its done all the time even with only TYPE A ! in other words you don't need to file as RNAV or GPS. to get direct to a intersection or anything else for that matter


Good Day
Unknown

One other thing I should add here as per
Quote from: cessna157 on Today at 07:31:15 AM
Does anyone else know of a way to fly directly to an intersection without RNAV/GPS?

Yes just look at your charts ! its as easy as that  (No ESP needed)   grin
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 04:15:26 PM by WWW310 » Logged
cessna157
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2008, 04:29:35 PM »


Yes just look at your charts ! its as easy as that  (No ESP needed)   grin

Okay, I'm looking at my chart....now what do I do? 

If you wanted to fly directly to an intersection, without first proceeding direct to a VOR/NDB or intercepting a defining radial first, how would one do that?  You have no way of positively identifying the fix.

Yes, you could proceed by dead reckoning (throw out pilotage, we're IMC), but you wouldn't be flying directly to a fix.  You'd be flying in the general direcion of a fix by guessing.
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2008, 04:44:29 PM »



Does anyone else know of a way to fly directly to an intersection without RNAV/GPS?

The closest you get is:

"Approach, request radar vectors direct [INTERSECTION], we're /U"

--Carlos V.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2008, 04:55:48 PM »

Yes just look at your charts ! its as easy as that  (No ESP needed)   grin

Really?    And once you look at your charts what do use to navigate to the intersection?   The heading bug set to an estimated heading?  What positive course guidance are you following?


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Regards, Peter
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WWW310
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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2008, 04:56:24 PM »


Yes just look at your charts ! its as easy as that  (No ESP needed)   grin

Okay, I'm looking at my chart....now what do I do? 

If you wanted to fly directly to an intersection, without first proceeding direct to a VOR/NDB or intercepting a defining radial first, how would one do that?  You have no way of positively identifying the fix.

Yes, you could proceed by dead reckoning (throw out pilotage, we're IMC), but you wouldn't be flying directly to a fix.  You'd be flying in the general direcion of a fix by guessing.

You answered your own question "proceeding direct to a VOR/NDB or intercepting a defining radial first"

Now back to...... do I have to file RNAV/GPS in my flight plans the answer is absolutely not ! however if you are given direct to you must be able to except it If not refuse !

Please remember just because a pilot dose not file for lets say TYPE G  dose not mean he cant except direct to such as the case with (Janet)
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Jason
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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2008, 05:15:35 PM »

You answered your own question "proceeding direct to a VOR/NDB or intercepting a defining radial first"

Now back to...... do I have to file RNAV/GPS in my flight plans the answer is absolutely not ! however if you are given direct to you must be able to except it If not refuse !

Please remember just because a pilot dose not file for lets say TYPE G  dose not mean he cant except direct to such as the case with (Janet)

"Proceeding direct to a VOR/NDB or intercepting a defining radial first" is not direct, that's the point he's trying to make.  Direct would be present position direct to that intersection, not intercepting a defining radial and tracking towards it.

If N90 instructs me to proceed direct RYMES and I fly north to pick up the BDR R-288 first instead of turning westbound and tracking towards it, I will have a phone number to call after I land, guaranteed.

Most controllers I talk to check the equipment suffix (ie, slant golf) on the flight progress strip or URET before sending an aircraft direct to a fix.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 05:17:53 PM by Jason » Logged
WWW310
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« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2008, 06:54:42 PM »

"Proceeding direct to a VOR/NDB or intercepting a defining radial first" is not direct, that's the point he's trying to make.  Direct would be present position direct to that intersection"

Yes thanks for pointing that out I miss spoke about that I should have said thats one way to find a intersection

Anyway the whole point I was trying to make here was its ok to fly direct too (Huh?) even if you did not file TYPE /R-NAV or other   

Now once again if you are given direct too if you cant except it  DONT ! as far as flying direct to that intersection off the flight path without first given vectors from ATC you better be prepared to pull up that GPS or something to get you there !

As far as  "Most controllers I talk to check the equipment suffix (ie, slant golf) on the flight progress strip or URET before sending an aircraft direct to a fix"

Yes underline Most controllers  and some airlines are treated differently such as........ yep you guess it (JANET)  grin
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bcrosby
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2008, 04:21:04 PM »

Loran?

That's not IFR.  Controller could never ask you to do it legally.  Plus, that'd be part of an RNAV suffix

Bzzzzt! In Canada you can use LORAN-C For IFR Navigation:

COM 3.15.3 States:

"LORAN-C can be used for enroute IFR navigation subject to certain limitations and conditions. Operation in terminal control areas and during instrument approaches must be with reference to conventional navigation aids or IFR-certified GPS."

So technically you can use loran-c to go 'direct to' an intersection (since LORAN-C is part of the suite of tools you can use for rnav) as long as you are not in terminal control areas.
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KB6HLM
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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2008, 09:20:59 PM »

LORAN-C  ?   OMG is that still around ? WOW 

I remember when my dad had LORAN-C on one his old boats years and years ago but never really used it as we preferred to use something even older a (sextant)  for you young folks out there you will have to do a search on that one  grin

Do you have a old B/W television you watch as well  (LOL)  J/K


Anyway good luck with that  grin
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cessna157
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2008, 09:28:14 PM »

Yeah, Loran still works.

What was the predecessor?  I cannot recall the name?  Omega?

It was another low frequency system, even more prehistoric than Loran.
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2008, 09:39:14 PM »

yeah it was omega
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cranford84
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« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2008, 02:37:57 PM »

Oh how spoiled we have become with GPS these days!  OK- gonna sound like a crusty old one here- but way back when in Air Force Pilot training we did have to do this.  It was call fix to fix.  It was a real joy in the T-37.  I can't remember how we did it.  But I do remember when graduated to the T-38 it had an HSI.  Wow- amazing technology!  We would "visualize" the fixes overlayed onto the HSI and estimate a heading.  Not an exact science.  Usually you intercepted the radial within a mile or two (if lucky) and then followed the radial the remaining distance to the target fix.  After initial pilot training- never did it again.  Pay your dues type thing, I guess!
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