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Author Topic: ATC at LAS I am not a pilot  (Read 21137 times)
rickeyy
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« on: July 12, 2008, 03:51:53 PM »

KLAS-Jul-12-2008-1730Z.mp3
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2008, 04:00:55 PM »

Help a brother out here and post the approximate minute mark within that 30 minute clip where this was said.  Smiley
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ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
rickeyy
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2008, 04:05:28 PM »

I got the clip on the PC but do not know how to post it Thought I did it right
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rickeyy
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2008, 04:14:06 PM »

I think this is it
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moto400ex
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2008, 09:11:32 PM »

Ok so the clip is 31:36 long.  Where in the clip is this "incident"?
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moto400ex
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2008, 09:19:33 PM »

OK so I think its the part which starts around 21:00. 
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Hollis
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2008, 11:26:06 AM »

If you listen to earlier portions, you'll hear where N317DJ is apparently having navigation problems. Tries to blame it on his lack of equipment!
The aircraft is an Eclipse Aviation EA500 'microjet' (as the controller called it).
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KB6HLM
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 03:59:44 AM »

WOW

That guy sounds like someone flying on (VATSIM)!  LOL  grin 

The fun starts after 16:00 on the tape

Transcript
"ya I understand sir and we could have if we where given permission to intercept one of those radials to go right to clarr off the radial but we don't have R-NAV yet"

Hello ? "we don't have R-NAV yet"  Are you sure you didn't record this off vatsim ?? LOL

O-BOY I am glad I was not on that flight !
thanks for the recording

Now if I could only stop laughing  grin grin grin grin grin

73
KB6HLM
Las Vegas, NV
Live webcam www.camradio.net


 

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cessna157
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2008, 07:31:15 AM »

Somebody is in error here.  It is either the controller or the pilot.  RNAV is part of the equipment suffix.  So either the controller thought they had RNAV (more on this in a sec) or the pilot incorrectly filed his aircraft as having RNAV or GPS.


The controller's advice at the 16:00 minute mark about finding the intersection is completely incorrect.  The intersection may be defined by LAS and DAG radials.  But he says you don't need RNAV to go direct to that point, which is absolutely wrong.  That's the definition of RNAV, to be able to go direct to a point without flying the radial.  The pilot is correct saying that if he was given direct to LAS or DAG, or given a vector to intercept one of the radials, they would have been able to fly over the intersection.

The SWA pilot later in the clip is incorrect in saying that he could have done it.  That actually confuses me, as the SWA pilot has no idea what the eclipse is equipped with.

Part of the problem is controllers have gotten used to jet aircraft having DME-DME RNAVs or GPS and being able to send them where ever they wanted.  Center controllers are used to this as NWA DC-9s are not capable.


Does anyone else know of a way to fly directly to an intersection without RNAV/GPS?
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Jason
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2008, 08:44:34 AM »

Does anyone else know of a way to fly directly to an intersection without RNAV/GPS?

ESP.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2008, 09:01:26 AM »

Somebody is in error here.  It is either the controller or the pilot.  RNAV is part of the equipment suffix.  So either the controller thought they had RNAV (more on this in a sec) or the pilot incorrectly filed his aircraft as having RNAV or GPS.

I have been experiencing this scenario in reverse a lot these days.  I always file IFR in a BE35/G  (for those unaware, /G is RNAV/GPS equipment suffix), but many times I will receive the following instruction from ATC just after departing:

"Bonanza XXX, turn left 150, when receiving Rockdale VOR, direct Rockdale." 

One time I replied to this by stating that I was a "slant Golf" and was direct Rockdale at this time, but the controller didn't acknowledge the discrepancy.

In any regard, good observation.

Does anyone else know of a way to fly directly to an intersection without RNAV/GPS?

Loran?
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
cessna157
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2008, 01:02:39 PM »

Loran?

That's not IFR.  Controller could never ask you to do it legally.  Plus, that'd be part of an RNAV suffix
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2008, 01:25:54 PM »

That's not IFR.  Controller could never ask you to do it legally.  Plus, that'd be part of an RNAV suffix

Being a pilot who came to this party officially in early 2002, I know absolutely nothing about Loran (other than skipping over those pretty and colorful pages in the AIM).  I had meant a smiley on that comment but sent it up too fast to catch that I was missing it.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
WWW310
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2008, 03:24:51 PM »

"But he says you don't need RNAV to go direct to that point, which is absolutely wrong"

Well now thats funny as we here at Janet are given direct to (well you know) all the time without radials to or from any VOR   and as you may have known we file as TYPE A

Now as to flying to a intersection without RNAV  You bet ya its done all the time even with only TYPE A ! in other words you don't need to file as RNAV or GPS. to get direct to a intersection or anything else for that matter


Good Day
Unknown

One other thing I should add here as per
Quote from: cessna157 on Today at 07:31:15 AM
Does anyone else know of a way to fly directly to an intersection without RNAV/GPS?

Yes just look at your charts ! its as easy as that  (No ESP needed)   grin
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 04:15:26 PM by WWW310 » Logged
cessna157
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2008, 04:29:35 PM »


Yes just look at your charts ! its as easy as that  (No ESP needed)   grin

Okay, I'm looking at my chart....now what do I do? 

If you wanted to fly directly to an intersection, without first proceeding direct to a VOR/NDB or intercepting a defining radial first, how would one do that?  You have no way of positively identifying the fix.

Yes, you could proceed by dead reckoning (throw out pilotage, we're IMC), but you wouldn't be flying directly to a fix.  You'd be flying in the general direcion of a fix by guessing.
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