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Author Topic: ATC at LAS I am not a pilot  (Read 23887 times)
Unbeliever
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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2008, 04:44:29 PM »



Does anyone else know of a way to fly directly to an intersection without RNAV/GPS?

The closest you get is:

"Approach, request radar vectors direct [INTERSECTION], we're /U"

--Carlos V.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2008, 04:55:48 PM »

Yes just look at your charts ! its as easy as that  (No ESP needed)   grin

Really?    And once you look at your charts what do use to navigate to the intersection?   The heading bug set to an estimated heading?  What positive course guidance are you following?


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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
WWW310
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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2008, 04:56:24 PM »


Yes just look at your charts ! its as easy as that  (No ESP needed)   grin

Okay, I'm looking at my chart....now what do I do? 

If you wanted to fly directly to an intersection, without first proceeding direct to a VOR/NDB or intercepting a defining radial first, how would one do that?  You have no way of positively identifying the fix.

Yes, you could proceed by dead reckoning (throw out pilotage, we're IMC), but you wouldn't be flying directly to a fix.  You'd be flying in the general direcion of a fix by guessing.

You answered your own question "proceeding direct to a VOR/NDB or intercepting a defining radial first"

Now back to...... do I have to file RNAV/GPS in my flight plans the answer is absolutely not ! however if you are given direct to you must be able to except it If not refuse !

Please remember just because a pilot dose not file for lets say TYPE G  dose not mean he cant except direct to such as the case with (Janet)
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Jason
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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2008, 05:15:35 PM »

You answered your own question "proceeding direct to a VOR/NDB or intercepting a defining radial first"

Now back to...... do I have to file RNAV/GPS in my flight plans the answer is absolutely not ! however if you are given direct to you must be able to except it If not refuse !

Please remember just because a pilot dose not file for lets say TYPE G  dose not mean he cant except direct to such as the case with (Janet)

"Proceeding direct to a VOR/NDB or intercepting a defining radial first" is not direct, that's the point he's trying to make.  Direct would be present position direct to that intersection, not intercepting a defining radial and tracking towards it.

If N90 instructs me to proceed direct RYMES and I fly north to pick up the BDR R-288 first instead of turning westbound and tracking towards it, I will have a phone number to call after I land, guaranteed.

Most controllers I talk to check the equipment suffix (ie, slant golf) on the flight progress strip or URET before sending an aircraft direct to a fix.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 05:17:53 PM by Jason » Logged
WWW310
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« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2008, 06:54:42 PM »

"Proceeding direct to a VOR/NDB or intercepting a defining radial first" is not direct, that's the point he's trying to make.  Direct would be present position direct to that intersection"

Yes thanks for pointing that out I miss spoke about that I should have said thats one way to find a intersection

Anyway the whole point I was trying to make here was its ok to fly direct too (Huh?) even if you did not file TYPE /R-NAV or other   

Now once again if you are given direct too if you cant except it  DONT ! as far as flying direct to that intersection off the flight path without first given vectors from ATC you better be prepared to pull up that GPS or something to get you there !

As far as  "Most controllers I talk to check the equipment suffix (ie, slant golf) on the flight progress strip or URET before sending an aircraft direct to a fix"

Yes underline Most controllers  and some airlines are treated differently such as........ yep you guess it (JANET)  grin
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bcrosby
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2008, 04:21:04 PM »

Loran?

That's not IFR.  Controller could never ask you to do it legally.  Plus, that'd be part of an RNAV suffix

Bzzzzt! In Canada you can use LORAN-C For IFR Navigation:

COM 3.15.3 States:

"LORAN-C can be used for enroute IFR navigation subject to certain limitations and conditions. Operation in terminal control areas and during instrument approaches must be with reference to conventional navigation aids or IFR-certified GPS."

So technically you can use loran-c to go 'direct to' an intersection (since LORAN-C is part of the suite of tools you can use for rnav) as long as you are not in terminal control areas.
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KB6HLM
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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2008, 09:20:59 PM »

LORAN-C  ?   OMG is that still around ? WOW 

I remember when my dad had LORAN-C on one his old boats years and years ago but never really used it as we preferred to use something even older a (sextant)  for you young folks out there you will have to do a search on that one  grin

Do you have a old B/W television you watch as well  (LOL)  J/K


Anyway good luck with that  grin
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cessna157
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2008, 09:28:14 PM »

Yeah, Loran still works.

What was the predecessor?  I cannot recall the name?  Omega?

It was another low frequency system, even more prehistoric than Loran.
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bcrosby
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2008, 09:39:14 PM »

yeah it was omega
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cranford84
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« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2008, 02:37:57 PM »

Oh how spoiled we have become with GPS these days!  OK- gonna sound like a crusty old one here- but way back when in Air Force Pilot training we did have to do this.  It was call fix to fix.  It was a real joy in the T-37.  I can't remember how we did it.  But I do remember when graduated to the T-38 it had an HSI.  Wow- amazing technology!  We would "visualize" the fixes overlayed onto the HSI and estimate a heading.  Not an exact science.  Usually you intercepted the radial within a mile or two (if lucky) and then followed the radial the remaining distance to the target fix.  After initial pilot training- never did it again.  Pay your dues type thing, I guess!
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mrcorchea
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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2008, 07:56:33 AM »

A simple explanation for those who want to know how to proceed from fix to fix. First time here. The minimum I can do for this interesting web page.
In order to imaging the fix in the RMI, you have to get a rough relationship between ACFT's DME distance and FIX DME distances: in the example 30 will be fond at the outer part of the RMI and 15 at the middle. Some other relationships could be i.e. 45 and 15: 45 (3/3) at the outer edge of the RMI and 15 at 1/3, etc

Regards,

Jaime
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2008, 09:09:34 AM »

Oh how spoiled we have become with GPS these days!  OK- gonna sound like a crusty old one here- but way back when in Air Force Pilot training we did have to do this.  It was call fix to fix.  It was a real joy in the T-37. 

Were you allowed to do this while flying IFR?
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
frantzy
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« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2008, 11:49:17 AM »

Somebody is in error here.  It is either the controller or the pilot.  RNAV is part of the equipment suffix.  So either the controller thought they had RNAV (more on this in a sec) or the pilot incorrectly filed his aircraft as having RNAV or GPS.

AND

Part of the problem is controllers have gotten used to jet aircraft having DME-DME RNAVs or GPS and being able to send them where ever they wanted.  Center controllers are used to this as NWA DC-9s are not capable.

I think you're onto it.  I suspect the controller assumed a brand new jet like the Eclipse would have RNAV, but due to issues with their avionics suite most are VOR-only at this point.
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mk
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« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2008, 07:41:38 PM »

unless the fix was along an airway or radial the EA50 was on then there is no way he could have known where that fix was.  so maybe the controller thought he was on an airway???
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frantzy
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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2008, 02:41:02 AM »

Yes just look at your charts ! its as easy as that  (No ESP needed)   grin
OK, so if you're like the guy in the clip on the CLARR2 approach at the "J" in JOTNU, and the controller tells you to proceed direct CLARR, pray tell the exact heading you will follow (No ESP or guessing allowed).

The controller shows (and around 21:00, admits) his ignorance when he says even a Cirrus (with dual GPS) could proceed to a fix, and tells the pilot to put the fix in his "database".   He doesn't have one, that's the problem.   But in the controller's defense, it's pretty ridiculous in 2008 to have jets flying into Class B airspace without RNAV.
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