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Author Topic: ATC at LAS I am not a pilot  (Read 23267 times)
tyketto
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« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2008, 02:52:10 AM »

Yes just look at your charts ! its as easy as that  (No ESP needed)   grin
OK, so if you're like the guy in the clip on the CLARR2 approach at the "J" in JOTNU, and the controller tells you to proceed direct CLARR, pray tell the exact heading you will follow (No ESP or guessing allowed).

The controller shows (and around 21:00, admits) his ignorance when he says even a Cirrus (with dual GPS) could proceed to a fix, and tells the pilot to put the fix in his "database".   He doesn't have one, that's the problem.   But in the controller's defense, it's pretty ridiculous in 2008 to have jets flying into Class B airspace without RNAV.

Why would it be ridiculous? There are American MD80s that are /I that fly in and out of Class B airspace on a daily basis! Any plane should be able to transition Class A through G airspace with or without RNAV, as long as they know how to operate their plane and instruments. You don't have to be RNAV to get in or out of Class B. Case in point, those Amflight and Pac Valley C208s that come in all the time. I can guarantee that none of those are RNAV.

BL.
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frantzy
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« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2008, 12:24:38 PM »

Why would it be ridiculous? There are American MD80s that are /I that fly in and out of Class B airspace on a daily basis! Any plane should be able to transition Class A through G airspace with or without RNAV, as long as they know how to operate their plane and instruments. You don't have to be RNAV to get in or out of Class B. Case in point, those Amflight and Pac Valley C208s that come in all the time. I can guarantee that none of those are RNAV.

I don't mean as a regulatory requirement, I mean (1) as just a reasonable expectation, and (2) as a practical matter for transitioning from the flight levels through busy corridors at high speeds.   

Re: (1), I would say - show me an Eclipse owner who isn't bummed about carrying a Garmin 496 around in their VLJ, and I'll concede the point  grin

Re: (2) I would argue the Caravans are a different matter I think, since they're low & slow.   I'm not a controller but when I've flown low & slow planes into busy airports, it seems like the controllers have a separate game plan on how to handle me.   Kinda like when an 80-year old crosses the street - nobody honks their horn to tell the guy to speed up. wink

As for the MD80s, all the AA flights I found in a brief search on Flightaware were /Q.   Can you cite a specific example?  But taking your word for it, /I is basic RNAV, so they have more than the guy in the clip.   But if they just have VOR/DME I guess they would be in the same boat, unable to go direct CLARR.   Those AA MD80s really don't have the capability to go direct to an intersection?

OK, so maybe "ridiculous" is a bit harsh...I'll rephrase - I think it's uncool  cool
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tyketto
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« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2008, 02:07:58 PM »

Quote from: frantzy
Re: (2) I would argue the Caravans are a different matter I think, since they're low & slow.   I'm not a controller but when I've flown low & slow planes into busy airports, it seems like the controllers have a separate game plan on how to handle me.   Kinda like when an 80-year old crosses the street - nobody honks their horn to tell the guy to speed up.

They generally add more separation between caravans and those following them because of them being slow/go. Also, the CRESO3 arrival is still in use for those slow birds coming from the south, and it is only used for those Slow/go

Another set of routes that they use is the El Cortez 1 VFR transition going over the old Showboat hotel location, above Fremont Street and in to VGT, the Rocks transition that goes up the west side of Vegas over Redrock Canyon, the 3 Fingers lakes and into VGT (that one pretty much stays outside of Class B), and the Henderson routing (fly over HND airport, direct the numbers for 25L/R, depart the numbers heading 010 or 290 if traffic permits at 5000ft (IFR) or 4500ft (VFR)), which goes straight through the Bravo.

As far as an example, I remember hearing it on Delivery when I was there 3 weeks ago. The pilot called in looking for clearance and specifically said that they were /I today.

I agree on the Eclipse.

BL.
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cranford84
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« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2008, 10:08:32 AM »

Oh how spoiled we have become with GPS these days!  OK- gonna sound like a crusty old one here- but way back when in Air Force Pilot training we did have to do this.  It was call fix to fix.  It was a real joy in the T-37. 

Were you allowed to do this while flying IFR?

Sure enough.  ATC would not tell us to do it- we would request it.  It was part of the syllabus of training, so on your cross countries you would request it.  Quite often if not always we would get clearance to do it.
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spikesonthebrain
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« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2008, 06:36:06 PM »

I'm not sure if anybody said this or not but it is very possible to go direct to an intersection without rnav, or dme. I have to go in the direction of the controller, the pilot obviously never learned to read sids and stars.
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tyketto
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« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2008, 07:15:53 PM »

I'm not sure if anybody said this or not but it is very possible to go direct to an intersection without rnav, or dme. I have to go in the direction of the controller, the pilot obviously never learned to read sids and stars.

and how would you get to said intersection? Most intersections (not including RNAV) are referenced in relation to a given VOR. For example, on the CLARR2 arrival, you could only get to CLARR if you were1) RNAV capable, or 2) have DME. CLARR is on the LAS R-211, 35DME, and you wouldn't be able to get to it without figuring out how far away you are from LAS.

If the controller had told him what someone else had posted, like "fly heading 360, on that heading join the Las Vegas 211 Radial inbound", you would be able to get to CLARR. But other than that, without DME at the least, you can't go direct to any intersection (and for the most, not even with DME).

BL.
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unclejay
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« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2008, 07:04:15 PM »

Heres how you do it.

You draw a line on the Jepp chart from where you are, direct to the fix. Using the scale ruler, you plot dme distances all along the route, then you fly a basic DME arc to the fix. Except the arc is in a straight line.

if its legal for approaches, its legal for enroute.

No DME ?  The you have to do the same thing by triangulating 2 VOR radials. Very tough to do while PIC.
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cessna157
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« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2008, 09:14:02 PM »

I don't know of any sane person that would navigate this way.  Completely unrealistic.

While an interesting idea and way to navigate, it sounds like an overly complex form of dead reckoning.
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