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Author Topic: B-17 Forced Landing, Aurora Tower  (Read 28141 times)
tpj
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« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2011, 03:33:01 PM »

So are you suggesting that it would've been better to not have had emergency response? As a Private Pilot and  Air Traffic Controller with (>30,000 hrs), I believe this Controller responded appropriately. It a Controller's job to dispatch emergency equipment and personell ASAP. There were obviously other aircraft on the frequency and to suggest that she stay off the radio for 30 seconds to a minute could've resulted in another accident. This emergency did not occur in controlled airspace, but was broadcast on a controlled frequency. Aircraft in-flight cannot hold their positions and they certainly will NOT stop communicating. I absolutely agree to fly the plane first, then communicate. The reason there was emergency response was because of her persistance. This was not a "needless call", but a very necessary one.

I respect your opinion, but wholeheartedly disagree.   There are nordo procedures for both ATC and pilots.  To suggest that a mere 30 seconds to a minute would cause another crash is ridiculous.  The weather is not a factor.  If you think that fully licensed, certificated pilots can't think on their own for that time period, use nordo procedures and "see and avoid" bad situations, then you obviously think that a private pilot's license is a joke.  The only thing the lady did was garbage up the radios, and hindering the handling of the IFE.   Was it really necessary that the emergency response get there 30 secs to a minute faster?  That would have had NO effect.  Besides that, the other plane or other planes in the area would have relayed the position of the B-17.  She knew that that aircraft was a formation and was not alone.  It most definitely was  a "needless call". 

as a 30 year retired controller all i can say is that your clueless.

Thanks for agreeing with me, ogogog!  Finally, somebody gets it. 
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NoMad
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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2011, 06:58:37 PM »

As a pilot, I'm seriously annoyed at the tower operator.  Don't these people know ANYTHING?
Apparently they know a lot more than you do.

There is an EMERGENCY UNDER WAY, one pilot talking to another, and she keeps interrupting
And the tower controller is a integral part of any emergency on their channel in their airspace.  Do you think the fire is going to put itself out???  And no they were not talking to eachother.  He was talking to himself since the aircraft on fire was on a different channel.  She wasn't interrupting.  She was doing her job and sending fire trucks where they need go.


not only with her question but also handling other planes which can WAIT.
Wrong.  All radio traffic does not cease when there is an emergency.  The other aircraft in the sky can not just pull over and wait.

When the pilot has a chance, he will let ATC know what's going on, but until then ATC SHOULD STAY OFF THE AIR and let the pilots sort it out.
Wrong.  Further details not needed, see above.

The radio on the ground is more powerful and has a much better antenna, and every time she spouts off that radio drowns out the IMPORTANT traffic.
And apparently every time you spout off on this forum, it drowns out intelligence.  She's doing her job, and doing it well.  And the pilot did not let ATC know and her questions were just as important as everyone else's traffic.

There is nothing that she needs to know that she won't hear if she listens.
Nobody was saying that information which was needed immediately.  So she did her job.  Sounds like you're the one that needs to do more listening and less talking.

If I ever have a problem like this, all I want to hear from ATC is "There is an emergency, all aircraft hold short and stay off the radio!"
Well I hope you don't have an emergency because you will sorely disappointed when firetrucks are waiting for you because the controllers did their job.
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VampyreGTX
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« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2011, 01:52:12 PM »

   Was it really necessary that the emergency response get there 30 secs to a minute faster?  That would have had NO effect.  

Yes, it WAS necessary! As a Firefighter  myself, 30seconds to a minute can mean the difference between life and death. AFTER the fact in this case, obviously it didn't matter, but if the outcome of the 'emergency landing' had been different, at least emergency responders would have been 30-60 seconds closer to assisting anyone in trouble. If there had been lives to save, the FF's would have been in there, on foot, doing what they could to get everyone out and in that case every second counts, as depending on fire load, fire can double in size every minute. It also allowed command to call for a box-alarm trying to get as many surrounding departments brush trucks out to the scene to get water on the fire as soon as possible. Fire engines are not made to off-road with their weight, 2 wheel (rear-wheel) drive and tires.  They would have gotten stuck within only a few feet of entering the field.
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NoMad
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« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2011, 07:08:02 PM »

I agree with the above.  I would have quoted and shot down that dude's whole post too if I noticed it the other day.  Nothing in his rambling is correct either.  And I'm also a firefighter.
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sacex250
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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2011, 07:58:11 AM »

As a pilot, I'm seriously annoyed at the tower operator.  Don't these people know ANYTHING?

There is an EMERGENCY UNDER WAY, one pilot talking to another, and she keeps interrupting, not only with her question but also handling other planes which can WAIT.

When the pilot has a chance, he will let ATC know what's going on, but until then ATC SHOULD STAY OFF THE AIR and let the pilots sort it out.  The radio on the ground is more powerful and has a much better antenna, and every time she spouts off that radio drowns out the IMPORTANT traffic.  There is nothing that she needs to know that she won't hear if she listens.

If I ever have a problem like this, all I want to hear from ATC is "There is an emergency, all aircraft hold short and stay off the radio!"
As a pilot I can say you don't have a clue what you're talking about.  The controller was doing her job.  In essence, she was giving complete priority to an unknown aircraft in suspected distress.  Was she just supposed to wait there silently and just ignore everyone else on frequency until the aircraft got around to making a proper distress call?  If the pilots were too busy to talk to her then they didn't have to, but that doesn't mean that she isn't entitled to query an unidentified aircraft and offer assistance, especially since it was on her local frequency and not 121.5. 

This is what happens when you let sexism interfere with rational thought.

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ogogog
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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2011, 09:15:18 AM »


Thanks for agreeing with me, ogogog!  Finally, somebody gets it. 
[/quote]

no dude you got it wrong iam not agreeing with you at all, i was backing the controller 1000% ,your the one that is cluess about ATC procedured.
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RJ
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« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2011, 09:15:45 AM »

Some video footage I saw showed a yellow AT-6 with the B-17.  That would not be a Lima Lima aircraft because they fly T-34s.

The AT -6 belongs to my nephew who we hear on the radio advising the pilot of the fire.
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xinit
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« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2011, 09:58:35 AM »

Ironically, the original Liberty Belle, tail # 42-30096, had an accidental on-board fire and was destroyed in the resultant crash.

Small correction: That was a different Liberty Belle. The original flew in the 390th, tail number 42-97849

Chuck
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rapxxiitor
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« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2011, 05:50:45 PM »

A question for the firefighters.
   Four or five years ago, as I as leaving work, I noticed a S/E R/G aircraft that appeared to be taking off from Salinas,Ca airport, which is across the highway from my work. After a few seconds, it became obvious he was trying to LAND, but with the left gear at a 45 degree angle he couldn't. I found a vantage point and watched him make low passes trying to get the gear down. It was getting dark, and the pilot made the decision to land gear up.
    There were 3 fire trucks and an ambulance standing by at the terminal. The distance between them and runway 26 is approx. 1/8 mile. The pilot landed and and came to a halt. The emergency equipment started moving AFTER the plane stopped. I know George Kennedy chasing a 747 is pretty extreme, but I would think the equipment could have gotten a better jump in case there was a problem. Is this SOP for all fire departments, or just a local deal?
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NoMad
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« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2011, 08:27:50 PM »

Is this SOP for all fire departments, or just a local deal?

Well first things first, there is no such thing is an SOP for all departments.  There is no such thing.  Everyone makes their own SOP based on their own individual needs, desires, equipment, and manpower.

I obviously don't know the SOP of the department you were seeing.  However I can tell you it is rather unusual to be staging at a ramp rather than on the taxiways.  It is almost always setup such that emergency vehicles are staged on the taxiways in place where they won't be hit by an out of control aircraft.  For example, the taxiway at the approach end of the runway since that will put them BEHIND the aircraft's touchdown location and it won't go skidding into them.  Equipment staged further down runway would be held further away so they don't become part of the crash.
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pwr2al4
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« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2011, 07:37:16 PM »

As a pilot, I'm seriously annoyed at the tower operator.  Don't these people know ANYTHING?

There is an EMERGENCY UNDER WAY, one pilot talking to another, and she keeps interrupting, not only with her question but also handling other planes which can WAIT.

When the pilot has a chance, he will let ATC know what's going on, but until then ATC SHOULD STAY OFF THE AIR and let the pilots sort it out.  The radio on the ground is more powerful and has a much better antenna, and every time she spouts off that radio drowns out the IMPORTANT traffic.  There is nothing that she needs to know that she won't hear if she listens.

If I ever have a problem like this, all I want to hear from ATC is "There is an emergency, all aircraft hold short and stay off the radio!"

What the hell are you talking about seriously? How could she possibly know that there was communication between aircraft as opposed to say a right seater or another crew member transmitting on an open mic. And much more importantly wha the hell does it even matter?? They were literally 3 seconds into the incident, the audio wasn't very clean and besides whats the very first rule that every pilot learns during the very first emergency brief/lesson they ever receive? Heres a hint, communicate is quite a way down the list. And Besides after you hear the words your on fire, get it on the ground what else do you really need to talk about?

And what about all the other aircraft that she is responsible for, what do you think will happen if she just decides to stop talking out of respect for the two pilots. Thats a phenomenal way to make one problem into a many possibly fatal ones.

In situations like these the rule is simple and it generally rests with the pilots. follow all tower commands, ackowledge the tower as quickly and clearly as possible and then get hell off the radio and/or clear the airspace until your help is requested or you feel you are able to assist, in which case you would speak up.
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