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Author Topic: Bonanza crash at KBNA Nashville  (Read 16469 times)
Hollis
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« on: November 26, 2008, 12:09:39 PM »

Unfortunately this guy didn't make it.
Not a very pleasant listen, but these things happen.

* N412ES fatal.mp3 (3237.96 KB - downloaded 4506 times.)
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 01:29:50 PM »

Flightaware shows this aircraft as a Beech Baron, not a Bonanza.

edit:  News on the crash reports that three people were killed - the pilot and a married, middle-aged couple that owned many stores in the southeast.   The couple left behind three children.

Very sad.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 01:38:32 PM by KSYR-pjr » Logged

Regards, Peter
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2008, 11:32:35 AM »

I have been thinking about this accident over the last few days.  It is disturbing to me that an experienced pilot flying a multiengine, complex aircraft would lose his spatial orientation and spiral into the ground while flying in IMC (from what the communications seem to indicate).   

Aviation is one of the few pursuits where gaining lots of experience does not protect a pilot from committing possibly fatal mistakes. 
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baronb55
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2008, 03:31:22 PM »

Very sad! I have been told that once a baron enters a spin it is almost impossible to regain control. As a boron pilot, I wonder why he didn't have the autopilot engaged or if it malfunctioned? Lot's of questions that will likely never be answered.
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chrisrix
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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2008, 11:26:44 PM »

As a friend of the passengers and little knowledge of piloting, I do know that the plane was recently equipped with new auto pilot equipment. Could this have caused him to loose power or did he panic and become disoriented. I have been told by other pilots that he may have been disoriented and likey could've made some adjustsments to safety. However, when listening it seems as if his voice becomes staticey after the controllers tell him to pull up. Does that sound like power loss or normal radio static? Regaurdless 3 very great lives were lost and our community feels it. I would just like a better understanding of the situation from individuals with knowledge to interprit their thoughts based on the recording. sad
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2008, 09:55:40 AM »

As a friend of the passengers and little knowledge of piloting, I do know that the plane was recently equipped with new auto pilot equipment. Could this have caused him to loose power or did he panic and become disoriented. I have been told by other pilots that he may have been disoriented and likey could've made some adjustsments to safety.

My condolences to you during this time of great loss.  

Realize that it is very difficult for even experienced pilots to speculate on the actual cause of the crash, given the many number of variables that go into this.  Yes, from the communications it seems that the pilot lost spatial awareness (what is up, what is down, and how fast the aircraft was traveling) and then accidentally got into either a spin or a death spiral.  

However, there are other possible causes.  For example, carbon monoxide poisoning can cause disorientation and confusion in both pilots and passengers, leading to a loss of aircraft control.  Most small aircraft have duct work that purposely passes over the muffler, which is how the cabin is heated.  It is possible for CO to pass into the heating system and into the cabin, affecting the occupants.  I am not at all implying this was the case here but just pointing out another scenario.   A mandatory autopsy on the pilot will expose this.

Another issue known to cause aircraft to suddenly lose control is icing (where super-cooled water droplets hit the below-freezing airframe and props, then immediately turn to ice.  As the ice accumulates, all kinds of aerodynamic impediments occur).  Again, I do not know the meteorological conditions that day, but all it takes for icing to occur are temperatures below freezing at the altitude the aircraft is or was, and visible moisture either in the form of a cloud or freezing rain - the former being much more common.  Icing can be surmised by investigators but not always proved, since by the time the aircraft is discovered fire or warmer temperatures have melted all ice from the airframe.

Most Barons (the type of aircraft involved) are equipped with anti-ice boots (inflatable, rubber balloon-type devices on the leading edges that pop the ice off) but there are some that are not equipped.  Also, running the boots is a manual task that can be prone to error or omission.  Again, I am just pointing this out generally and none of this should be taken to imply anything related to this accident.

And finally, there have been rare cases where autopilots have malfunctioned and, not being caught in time by the pilot, have put the aircraft into an unusual attitude that led to a crash.

The NTSB maintains a public website where all non-military accident reports are available to read.  I don't see a preliminary report posted there yet for this crash but you can watch it at this link for the day of the accident:  http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/AccList.asp?month=11&year=2008

Note that it will most likely take up to a year or so for the report to move from a status of preliminary and factual  to final or probable cause.  So you will need to check back every few months for a year or so to see if the report has been updated.  Eventually the NTSB will post a probable cause of what their investigation concluded may have been the cause.  But also be aware that often times the report concludes with a "... for unknown reasons," which means that there will forever be a question as to what really happened.

From reading the various news articles about your friends, it does seem the community has suffered a great loss.  My thoughts are with you and the family of the victims as you and they grieve.


edit:  Converted link to working hyperlink.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 09:59:02 AM by KSYR-pjr » Logged

Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
jportzer
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 05:39:42 PM »

A preliminary report is now posted here:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20081124X30428&key=1
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 06:00:53 PM »

Damn, that accident is eerily similar to the Angel Flight accident last August.
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unclejay
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« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2008, 10:45:46 AM »

'Rare cases where an autopilot malfunctioned' Huh??

Ha ha tell me another - how about FREQUENT cases where an autopilot malfunctioned.

All it takes is to have the trim run away and BAM you're in a flat spin within 2 seconds.. and indeed you cant recover in a baron.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2008, 10:55:43 AM »

Ha ha tell me another - how about FREQUENT cases where an autopilot malfunctioned.

That's interesting.  Perhaps I failed to search the NTSB reports correctly but in my search I turned up a very low number of known run-away pitch trim/AP failures as a stated or probable cause of accidents over the last 10 years.

What statistics (as in non-anecdotal) do you have to support your claim?
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ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
T_N_T
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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2008, 10:56:51 PM »

News story from WSMV Channel 4 Nashville

http://www.wsmv.com/news/18050094/detail.html


Sounds like he was closer to John C. Tune(which is a small Cesna Airport) than KBNA
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 11:01:31 PM by T_N_T » Logged
atcshooter
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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2009, 01:29:38 AM »

[He was not on autopilot..I can tell you from a fact.
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atcshooter
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2009, 01:30:52 AM »

He was not on autopilot, it was a baron, and weather was the main factor.  Enough said.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2009, 09:13:08 AM »

He was not on autopilot, it was a baron, and weather was the main factor.  Enough said.

So, someone with no posting history here makes a bold, definitive statement about an accident that is still being investigated by the NTSB and I am expected to stand back in awe over this inside knowledge.   Perhaps that is how accidents are discussed in AOL chat rooms but excuse me if I am less than impressed with your statement.
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Jason
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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2009, 09:56:25 AM »

[He was not on autopilot..I can tell you from a fact.

Unfortunately nothing is a fact until officially released by the NTSB.  I've discussed many accidents over the last few years.  I have learned to hold back any speculation while the NTSB does their job.  Until then, nothing is a fact.

Best,
Jason
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flygirltammy
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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2009, 02:29:11 PM »

So. so sad. i have read the reports but I cannot bring myself to listen to the audio yet.
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KJET100
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« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2009, 09:14:56 PM »

I'd like to remind you that just because something is released and/or stated by the NTSB / Government, does not necessarily make it FACT. People ARE allowed to draw their own informed, researched opinions. This is not "speculating" or doing the perished a disservice (as the media pushes), it is making educated guesses. We are learning. That is WE. Meaning everyone. Not just the NTSB/FAA/GOV. I know enough about aircraft icing to understand it in a limited sense. I know enough about aircraft behavior and some failures to simulate in my own mind probability. You can go through the list and probably narrow it down to something common ie; failure, icing, etc. I don't believe so many accidents should be chalked-up to "spatial disorientation." I think that's an easy way to say "general problem with the piloting." And write it off.

If you are naive enough to actually believe that NTSB/FAA gospel is 100% rightful, truthful, fact, then this does not pertain to you. Nevermind. But if you have an independant and research based method of dealing with things (especially pertaining to complex situations) such as air disasters, then you'll get what I'm saying and not be offended. It's not my intention to offend. But rather open up more discussion.

I understand what you are saying my friend. But I just wanted to say that we should at least be able to discuss freely (as in American as Apple pie Freedom-of-speech) possibilities. You are right, if you know nothing, dont speculate. But that affirmation of the NTSB's investigative qualities just kills me. I've seen them over the last 20 years time and time again, screw things up. Sometimes they generalize due to the fact they cannot pinpoint specific problems and failures. We cant read dead minds. We can barely even reconstruct flight data of major airliners. With redundant data systems.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2009, 09:30:05 PM »

I'd like to remind you that just because something is released and/or stated by the NTSB / Government, does not necessarily make it FACT. People ARE allowed to draw their own informed, researched opinions. This is not "speculating" or doing the perished a disservice (as the media pushes), it is making educated guesses. We are learning. That is WE. Meaning everyone. Not just the NTSB/FAA/GOV. I know enough about aircraft icing to understand it in a limited sense. I know enough about aircraft behavior and some failures to simulate in my own mind probability. You can go through the list and probably narrow it down to something common ie; failure, icing, etc. I don't believe so many accidents should be chalked-up to "spatial disorientation." I think that's an easy way to say "general problem with the piloting." And write it off.

To whom are your replying?  It seems to me that you are taking issue with Jason's and my response to the newbie about what he believes is fact in this crash.   

For the record I have absolutely no disagreement with anything you have raised in your quote above.   The only disagreement I have is with the newbie and his abrupt, "this is what happened and it is fact. END of story."  That is not speculation, that is not opinion, and that is not an educated guess.  The only people at this point of the investigation who know what the facts were that caused this accident are the pilot and perhaps his passengers, but sadly they are all deceased.  Everyone else, including the controller who handled this accident and the NTSB, doesn't have all the facts and probably never will.
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Jason
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« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2009, 10:54:22 PM »

I'd like to remind you that just because something is released and/or stated by the NTSB / Government, does not necessarily make it FACT. People ARE allowed to draw their own informed, researched opinions. This is not "speculating" or doing the perished a disservice (as the media pushes), it is making educated guesses. We are learning. That is WE. Meaning everyone. Not just the NTSB/FAA/GOV. I know enough about aircraft icing to understand it in a limited sense. I know enough about aircraft behavior and some failures to simulate in my own mind probability. You can go through the list and probably narrow it down to something common ie; failure, icing, etc. I don't believe so many accidents should be chalked-up to "spatial disorientation." I think that's an easy way to say "general problem with the piloting." And write it off.

Absolutely, but what I responded to was not an informed, researched opinion, there was no support given to substantiate an educated guess of any kind.  As Peter pointed out, those that have the real facts are unfortunately deceased in this particular tragedy.  Pilots learn from others' mistakes.  Reading and learning from crucial errors in NTSB reports, both preliminary and factual, aids in promoting flight safety and preventing accidents.  That is how "WE" learn and continue to fly safely, not by ignoring the NTSB or FAA, and is why many professional training corporations (airlines included) use accidents and associated NTSB reports in initial, recurrent, and IOE training.

If you are naive enough to actually believe that NTSB/FAA gospel is 100% rightful, truthful, fact, then this does not pertain to you. Nevermind. But if you have an independant and research based method of dealing with things (especially pertaining to complex situations) such as air disasters, then you'll get what I'm saying and not be offended. It's not my intention to offend. But rather open up more discussion.

Aviation accidents are increasingly complex and difficult to conclude definitively.  No where did I point out that everything the NTSB or FAA concludes is 100% accurate.  Often, the only facts left from an accident are recorded and published by the NTSB rather than the speculative public.

I understand what you are saying my friend. But I just wanted to say that we should at least be able to discuss freely (as in American as Apple pie Freedom-of-speech) possibilities. You are right, if you know nothing, dont speculate. But that affirmation of the NTSB's investigative qualities just kills me. I've seen them over the last 20 years time and time again, screw things up. Sometimes they generalize due to the fact they cannot pinpoint specific problems and failures. We cant read dead minds. We can barely even reconstruct flight data of major airliners. With redundant data systems.

Perhaps my professional relationship with a number of NTSB accident investigators has given me a greater, more optimistic perspective on the agency.  Nothing found in aviation accidents is taken for it's whole value, there are always questionable facts and other fragments of evidence that leave the most complex tragedies a mystery.  However, it's important that we learn to avoid the mistakes identified in accidents investigated by the NTSB, whether they exist in the body of a report or require inference or extrapolation to recognize and educate.

I don't think your post was meant to undermine or discredit the agencies mentioned, but I find it extremely important to use them in a collaborative manner to enhance our safety in the skies.

Safe flying...

Best,
Jason
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 10:56:23 PM by Jason » Logged
KJET100
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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2009, 06:40:13 AM »

Very well put. So much for opening up for more discussion though. Because I concur with everything you say. You are kind as well as intelligent. Have a safe day!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 06:43:13 AM by KJET100 » Logged
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