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Author Topic: Busy night at JFK  (Read 79037 times)
w0x0f
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« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2006, 03:00:02 PM »

"The first part of the readback allows the controller (I believe - one of the controllers here would need to verify) to quickly verify the altitude on his scope (what is really the altitude from the aircraft's mode C transponder corrected to the local barometric pressure) matches what the pilot is seeing on his altimeter. "

Mode C altitude readouts must be verified on interfacility handoffs and on initial track start.  So the pilot must state their current altitude, or if climbing or descending, the altitude they are passing through and their assigned altitude.

  http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0502.html#5-2-17

w0x0f
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w0x0f
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« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2006, 03:16:08 PM »

"Leaving one thousand eight hundred, climbing three thousand, November 123," or "One thousand eight hundred, climbing three thousand, November 123."


I posted an article by Don Brown earlier in this thread.  Here is an excerpt of why you should use your call sign first and readback instructions second.

What controllers think they are saying is this:

"November 12345 descend and maintain one five thousand"

In the real world, it comes out like this:

"(Click)ber 12345 descend and maintain one five thousand"

For airlines and such, if there is a similar callsign on the frequency, the book requires us to repeat the call sign after the flight number. That's because it comes out like this:

"(Click)ner 123 Airliner descend and maintain flight level three three zero."

Okay, now we go back and tie in the original example of a bad readback.

"(Click)ner123 descend and maintain flight level three three zero."

"(Click) three zero Airliner123."

Let's try to do it halfway right and see if there is a difference.

"(Click)ner 123 descend and maintain flight level three three zero."

"(Click)ht level two three zero Airliner123."

"(Click)gative Airliner123 descend and maintain flight level THREE three zero."



So you see, good phraseology habits are incumbent upon all parties in aviation communications.  Safety first. Hot dog phraseology may sound cool and you may hear air carrier pilots using it, but it actually creates more workload because of readback again requests.  I've been in aviation for 30 years and I still use good phraseology to this day.  I get very few requests for "say again."  I was taught that way from the beginning and I hope the younger and more impressionable aviators on this excellent site will do the same.

w0x0f
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ian
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« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2006, 05:31:06 PM »

Quote from: w0x0f
"The first part of the readback allows the controller (I believe - one of the controllers here would need to verify) to quickly verify the altitude on his scope (what is really the altitude from the aircraft's mode C transponder corrected to the local barometric pressure) matches what the pilot is seeing on his altimeter. "

Mode C altitude readouts must be verified on interfacility handoffs and on initial track start.  So the pilot must state their current altitude, or if climbing or descending, the altitude they are passing through and their assigned altitude.

  http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp5/atc0502.html#5-2-17

w0x0f

when you switch from say memphis center to atlanta center, they dont ask you for a read out of the altitude, they just give you an altimeter setting that is close to you...this is also done when changing from say one sector of memphis center to another sector.
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davolijj
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« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2006, 06:23:28 PM »

Quote from: ian
when you switch from say memphis center to atlanta center, they dont ask you for a read out of the altitude, they just give you an altimeter setting that is close to you...


Most pilot give their altitude when they check in on the frequency.
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JD
spallanzani
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« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2006, 06:34:42 PM »

In Canada, the altitude confirmation is mostly given by the pilot when checking in, as JD said.

If a pilot calls "Departure Air Canada 123 with you", the controller will ask in 95% of the cases "Air Canada 123 say passing altitude". If controller is too much busy, he'll try to ask the pilot as soon as possible. But most of the pilots will say "Departures American 802 out of 2.6 for 5".

When arriving, even if pilot doesn't say his altitude, most of the time the ATC won't ask the passing altitude since he supposes the altitude was confirmed after takeoff. You can hear sometimes "Air France 356 traffic 3 o'clock 4 miles, Cessna 172 at 1,500 ft unverified".

If altitude sent is not correct, controller has to issue the altimeter setting a second time and the pilot has to check the altitude again. If it still doesn't work, pilot has to turn off the transponder and leave class C airspace...

For the HOLD SHORT instructions, well if it's mandatory, controllers don't do their job correctly. I hear a lot of abbreviated expressions both on CA and US feeds and rarely the controller will obstinate on it, unless it is not clear.

To me: "left on Golf and short of 28" is clear enough. But I fully understand confusion could happen one time and that could be dangerous.
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digger
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« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2006, 06:57:03 PM »

Quote
To me: "left on Golf and short of 28" is clear enough. But I fully understand confusion could happen one time and that could be dangerous.


Just like so many other regulations, sometime, somewhere, *someone* got things messed up, and now there's a regulation that *everybody* is required to follow, every time. Maybe not everybody follows those regulations all the time, but those that don't, put themselves at risk of being caught in an infraction of the rules, even if there's no actual incident or accident, and if there *is* an accident...
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spallanzani
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« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2006, 06:58:58 PM »

Exactly, you're totally right.

That's why I said that one time it could bring a confusion and etc.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2006, 11:13:27 PM »

Quote from: ian
Actually, "out of 5 for 3, cessna xxx" will suffice...


Sloppy phraseology, at least in the US.   Sure, many say it.  In fact, it seems that a lot of very low time pilots like to use that example to sound like the ariline pilots.  Doesn't mean it's correct.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2006, 11:38:08 PM »

Quote from: w0x0f
So you see, good phraseology habits are incumbent upon all parties in aviation communications.  Safety first. Hot dog phraseology may sound cool and you may hear air carrier pilots using it, but it actually creates more workload because of readback again requests.


Well put.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2006, 11:40:50 PM »

Quote from: ian
when you switch from say memphis center to atlanta center, they dont ask you for a read out of the altitude, they just give you an altimeter setting that is close to you...this is also done when changing from say one sector of memphis center to another sector.


Are you implying that pilots who switch from Memphis Center to Atlanta Center never include their altitude on the initial check-in?
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ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2006, 12:04:31 AM »

Quote from: davolijj
Quote from: ian
when you switch from say memphis center to atlanta center, they dont ask you for a read out of the altitude, they just give you an altimeter setting that is close to you...


Most pilot give their altitude when they check in on the frequency.


From the US AIM 5-3-1. ARTCC Communications, altitudes are part of the suggested check-in.   See the following quote.

(http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0503.html#5-3-1)

Quote
2. The following phraseology should be utilized by pilots for establishing contact with the designated facility:

(a) When operating in a radar environment: On initial contact, the pilot should inform the controller of the aircraft's assigned altitude preceded by the words "level," or "climbing to," or "descending to," as appropriate; and the aircraft's present vacating altitude, if applicable.

EXAMPLE-
1. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEVEL (altitude or flight level).
2. (Name) CENTER, (aircraft identification), LEAVING (exact altitude or flight level), CLIMBING TO OR DESCENDING TO (altitude of flight level).

NOTE-
Exact altitude or flight level means to the nearest 100 foot increment. Exact altitude or flight level reports on initial contact provide ATC with information required prior to using Mode C altitude information for separation purposes.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
ian
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« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2006, 01:49:31 AM »

Quote from: KSYR-pjr
Quote from: ian
when you switch from say memphis center to atlanta center, they dont ask you for a read out of the altitude, they just give you an altimeter setting that is close to you...this is also done when changing from say one sector of memphis center to another sector.


Are you implying that pilots who switch from Memphis Center to Atlanta Center never include their altitude on the initial check-in?


im sorry, what i meant was that they do not ask your altitude, of course checking in is something like "atlanta center, cessna xxx with you level 5" then the reply would be something like "cessna xxx, atlanta center roger, xxxx altimeterr 30.14"

i am by no means a low time pilot, so how about you leave your chastising me at the door.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2006, 08:20:03 AM »

Quote from: ian
i am by no means a low time pilot, so how about you leave your chastising me at the door.


Relax.  It was meant as a fact, not as a slam against you.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
DTAK
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« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2006, 04:57:07 PM »

Wow, either this thread is waaaaay of course now, or I need new charts...
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2006, 06:36:59 PM »

Quote from: DTAK
Wow, either this thread is waaaaay of course now, or I need new charts...


It actually is not that far off.  It started with the audio clip of a ground incident at JFK and evolved into a discussion about communications and phraseology as a direct result of an exchange within that audio clip.

Phraseology, like "teaching spins," "what causes lift," and "high wing versus low wing," is a very active topic in aviation-related groups.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
DTAK
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« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2006, 03:05:02 AM »

Quote from: KSYR-pjr
Quote from: DTAK
Wow, either this thread is waaaaay of course now, or I need new charts...


It actually is not that far off.  It started with the audio clip of a ground incident at JFK and evolved


Oh, I know how it started.  I don't need a lecture from you.
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davolijj
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« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2006, 07:26:44 AM »

Quote from: DTAK
Oh, I know how it started.  I don't need a lecture from you.


I didn't see anyone here lecturing....lighten up a bit.
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JD
digger
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« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2006, 08:04:20 AM »

It's that "New York atitude" from the clips--it's contagious...      cheesy
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Jason
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« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2006, 08:34:55 AM »

Quote from: digger
It's that "New York atitude" from the clips--it's contagious...      cheesy


..that must be it.

These "discussion forums" are exactly what the name implies: Where people can freely talk and express their opinions about a topic (LiveATC.net related) and support their statement(s). This doesn't mean you can't agree or disagree with someone's opinion, that's the exact opposite of a discussion, but please just try and lighten up a bit, understand other member's opinion(s) and let's all have fun enjoying what we all love to do here. I don't want to have to lock this thread.

Also--Read someone’s entire post before responding back to it. I've found myself before responding to an opinion that later changed in his/her post and found myself in an odd situation.

These ATC audio clips can be very controversial and are highly based on the situation the controller(s) were presented with at the time, which we most likely don't know.

So--now that all I have to say has been said, let's enjoy these great clips that our members post and in most cases commend the controller and/or pilot for a job well done.  This sure was an interesting clip with that NY attitude "flare" (no pun intended) to it.  Communication can be very tricky at times and shouldn't be taken for granted.   I have a friend in Korea who is an ATCS in the military and has a very difficult time understanding the pilots with thick foreign accents.

Thanks for your understanding,
Jason
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2006, 09:04:15 AM »

Quote from: DTAK
Oh, I know how it started.  I don't need a lecture from you.


Two words, chief:  De CAF.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
MC8RKTS800
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« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2006, 10:52:19 PM »

The file is no longer up i was looking to get this file if somebody could repost.
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Difatality
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« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2008, 09:11:31 PM »

Wow this guys really have busy nights
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It is better to be on ground wishing to be flying, Than to be Flying wishing to be on the ground!!
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« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2008, 09:45:30 PM »

Actually, when a pilot checks on my frequency, if he was switched from a sector in my facility I am not required to verify his altitude.  If he was switched from ANOTHER facility I am required to verify his altitude.  Most won't but it is in the 7110.65.
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Mindz
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« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2010, 02:10:15 PM »

The file is no longer up i was looking to get this file if somebody could repost.

yes, can anyone repost please?
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glencar
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« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2010, 09:21:16 PM »

At one point Air China and Korean were the worst airlines to communicate with. Iberian has been in the lead for some time now. I'm actually fling them in a couple of weeks over in Spain but no, I'm not flying them from JFK to Spain.
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