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Author Topic: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK  (Read 58092 times)
tarapoto
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« on: June 20, 2011, 07:01:19 PM »

I'm not sure what just happened I was just listening on JFK Tower and around 1050-1055z the controller shouted at Air China to cancel takeoff clearance, then proceeded to say all traffic is stopped. I'm not sure what happened, Air China rejected takeoff and returned to the ramp with hot brakes and someone started talking about the incident and the controller said "No need to talk about it on the air, we can all see what's going on here" and then he chuckled. I don't know how to pull up the audio, but if anyone is interested the rejected takeoff was at 1054z I believe. Happy listening

PS. I think it was Air China, the pilot had an Asian accent
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Lrusso
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2011, 07:10:44 PM »

It was Lufthansa 411 - an Airbus A340
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tarapoto
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2011, 07:17:35 PM »

Ah ok, thanks. Is this like a daily occurence at JFK? grin

How long does it take for the audio archive to come up? Half an hour?
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Lrusso
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2011, 07:22:56 PM »

def not a normal occurrence seemed like a very serious incident.

Not sure on the archives. 
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cstefano
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2011, 07:26:23 PM »

Feeds are archived in half-hour intervals; the most recent interval usually shows up in the archive a few minutes after the hour/half hour.
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squircle
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2011, 07:52:50 PM »

I just listened from 2230-2300Z and found bits of the conversation; I edited them together the best I could. Nobody really makes it clear as to what happened (although I am pretty curious!).

* DLH411.mp3 (201.09 KB - downloaded 5692 times.)
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Lrusso
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2011, 07:55:56 PM »

Seemed like DLH took off without clearance?

or someone entered the runway I don't quite understand the Short career line that JFK controller has been there for quite awhile so I don't think the controller made a mistake.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 07:57:46 PM by Lrusso » Logged
squircle
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2011, 08:09:20 PM »

I don't quite understand the Short career line

There wasn't any audible takeoff clearance in the archive, but I should clarify a bit more with that comment. That comment was made by a VRD pilot who had just landed and (presumably) had seen whatever went on with the DLH aircraft.
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Dngnkeeper
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2011, 08:10:04 PM »

At 0:49 someone says "those two were coming together". Possible runway incursion or some type of imminent collision?

Good catch by the controller and pushing the all stop.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 08:12:50 PM by Dngnkeeper » Logged
Lrusso
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2011, 08:17:53 PM »

At 0:49 someone says "those two were coming together". Possible runway incursion or some type of imminent collision?

Good catch by the controller and pushing the all stop.
Maybe a truck or something entered the runway?
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Lrusso
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2011, 08:37:36 PM »

incident aircraft is taking off now.
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stingray0
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2011, 08:42:24 PM »

Here's how I got:

Lufthansa 411 (A340-600)
EgyptAir 986 (777-300)

MSR cleared to taxi from Terminal 4, Hotel to 22R via left Bravo (hold short Delta). He seems to have gone to far, missed the turn onto Bravo and/or mistook 22R for Bravo which he almost entered.
Meanwhile take-off clearence for a flight from 31L and following DLH form 22R. The actuall clearence of DLH is not audible due to Local #2 talking to VFR traffic on 125.25.
Local #1 shouting "cancel take-off clearence"... MSR had to enter 22R to the right to clear the situation afterwards (on ground frequency). Since DLH cleared 22R at Hotel he must have come to a stop between Golf and Hotel, MSR could only go right on 22R.

Definitely runway incursion, very near miss...

DLH has been delayed up to now (0035z almost two hours for refueling and hot brakes). MSR 986 left about an hour prior to that.
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Lrusso
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2011, 08:45:41 PM »

Here's how I got:

Lufthansa 411 (A340-600)
EgyptAir 986 (777-300)

MSR cleared to taxi from Terminal 4, Hotel to 22R via left Bravo (hold short Delta). He seems to have gone to far, missed the turn onto Bravo and/or mistook 22R for Bravo which he almost entered.
Meanwhile take-off clearence for a flight from 31L and following DLH form 22R. The actuall clearence of DLH is not audible due to Local #2 talking to VFR traffic on 125.25.
Local #1 shouting "cancel take-off clearence"... MSR had to enter 22R to the right to clear the situation afterwards (on ground frequency). Since DLH cleared 22R at Hotel he must have come to a stop between Golf and Hotel, MSR could only go right on 22R.

Definitely runway incursion, very near miss...

DLH has been delayed up to now (0035z almost two hours for refueling and hot brakes). MSR 986 left about an hour prior to that.

Makes sense thats why Egypt Air on the ground frequency got a 718 phone number to call upon landing in CAIRO.
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graysono
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Greetings from Middle Earth!


« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 08:16:20 AM »

Good old AvHerald with more ... grin

A Lufthansa Airbus A340-600, registration D-AIHM performing flight LH-411 from New York JFK,NY (USA) to Munich (Germany), was cleared for takeoff from JFK's runway 22R at approximately 18:52L (22:52Z), the next aircraft in sequence had been cleared to line up runway 22R, when the tower controller highy agitated called "CANCEL TAKEOFF CLEARANCE" at approximately 18:53L, Lufthansa 411 reported rejecting takeoff. The airplane slowed safely from high speed. Another crew on frequency commented that was very close. The Airbus A340 vacated the runway at taxiway H. The crew reported hot brakes and had the brakes checked out by emergency services.

At the same time an Egyptair Boeing 777-300, registration SU-GDR performing flight MS-986 from New York JFK,NY (USA) to Cairo (Egypt), was in contact with ground control taxiing for departure out of terminal 4 and had been instructed to turn left onto taxiway B hold short of D. The crew however missed the turn onto taxiway B and instead turned onto runway 22R at taxiway J. Subsequently ground control calmly instructed the aircraft to turn back onto J and turn right onto B, then changed plan and had the airplane taxi up runway 04R turn onto taxiway H and join taxiway B.

The Lufthansa A340 was able to depart again about 2 hours later and reached Munich with a delay of 1:45 hours. The Egyptair B777 departed New York about 75 minutes later and reached Cairo with a delay of 40 minutes.

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Grayson
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Comfirm31L
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2011, 10:05:06 AM »

It sounds to me DLH stopped in the vicinity of F, they say we taxi down the runway and exit at G. They came off at H after they decided to go back to the ramp. Also MSR came out onto 22R at H, not J.
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stingray0
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 10:09:31 AM »

Sorry, the poster at AvHerald got it wrong. The audio recording has ground controller instructing MSR 986 to turn onto 22R, taxi down and exit at Juliet:

"EgyptAir 986 heavy, I need you to go right on runway 22R and hold short off Juliet"...
"EgyptAir 986 heavy, right on Juliet, taxi right on Bravo."...
"And EgyptAir 986 heavy, I need you to go right on Bravo and hold short off Golf."...
"EgyptAir 986 heavy, I need you to join Bravo at Hotel, please."...

According to this, MSR986 could not have entered 22R at Juliet. The last instruction also seems to indicate, that MSR986 messed up again and exited the rwy turning right onto Alpha.
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stingray0
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2011, 10:22:18 AM »

Here's the TWR audio

* DLH411-MSR986-TWR.mp3 (1829.79 KB - downloaded 8097 times.)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 10:36:08 AM by stingray0 » Logged
stingray0
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2011, 10:36:44 AM »

Here's the GND audio

* DLH411-MSR986-GND.mp3 (1330.61 KB - downloaded 6818 times.)
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sonnycol
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2011, 12:56:25 PM »

Thank goodness for good visibility. Something like this happens under IFR day or night, with low RVR, and you're looking at another Tenerife.

It's another example of the need for seamless awareness and communication between tower and ground controllers.

And it's another case of language /communication barrier causing confusion contributing to an incident, especially on the part of EgyptAir. Everyday stuff at JFK, and everyday risk.

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aevins
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2011, 02:00:21 PM »

Main issues aside, I'm troubled by the fact that a crew who had just been involved in a serious runway incursion choose to and was allowed to continue on. This is of concern from a human factors standpoint. The stresses invoked on crews involved in such incidents are enough to distract them preforming their duties.

Flight crews involved in Category A runway incursions should be treated the same as controllers are - quarantined and debriefed/downloaded.

I look forward to reading the NTSB Report.
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Comfirm31L
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2011, 12:21:05 AM »

Main issues aside, I'm troubled by the fact that a crew who had just been involved in a serious runway incursion choose to and was allowed to continue on. This is of concern from a human factors standpoint. The stresses invoked on crews involved in such incidents are enough to distract them preforming their duties.

Flight crews involved in Category A runway incursions should be treated the same as controllers are - quarantined and debriefed/downloaded.

I look forward to reading the NTSB Report.

But that would result in a canceled flight... and we CANT have that.  rolleyes
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liveatcnoob
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2011, 09:35:54 AM »

Sounds to me like the ground controller had a role in this. I couldn't understand some of her transmissions and I'm a native English speaker in a quiet room. Her last transmission on the mp3 makes it sound like she's gargling. Can't imagine what it sounded like in a noisy cockpit.
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shtank
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2011, 10:07:56 AM »

It certainly sounds like MSR messed up big time. First of all, those broken lines indicating a runway are plain as day and you never cross those unless you have clearance to enter the runway (especially with the new rules where no matter what the controller wants you to do they have to clear you to cross or enter a runway). Also, any time you taxi onto a runway, you look both ways even if the controller cleared you. You never rely on a controller when entering a runway.
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MikeNYC
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« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2011, 10:47:32 AM »

This also happened in daylight, good WX too.

Seems this got picked up by various media outlets:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/near_miss_on_jfk_runway_kLWyQHsO3KS1ncroiRTx6J
http://gothamist.com/2011/06/22/lufthansa_egyptair_planes_nearly_co.php
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/22/earlyshow/main20073243.shtml
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/22/faa-investigating-near-miss-on-jfk-runway/
(among many others).

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spliffer
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« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2011, 10:53:29 AM »

Like George Carlin said "isn't it really a near hit.  Cause a near miss is a hit."
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