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| | |-+  Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK
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Author Topic: Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK  (Read 41077 times)
stingray0
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 10:09:31 AM »

Sorry, the poster at AvHerald got it wrong. The audio recording has ground controller instructing MSR 986 to turn onto 22R, taxi down and exit at Juliet:

"EgyptAir 986 heavy, I need you to go right on runway 22R and hold short off Juliet"...
"EgyptAir 986 heavy, right on Juliet, taxi right on Bravo."...
"And EgyptAir 986 heavy, I need you to go right on Bravo and hold short off Golf."...
"EgyptAir 986 heavy, I need you to join Bravo at Hotel, please."...

According to this, MSR986 could not have entered 22R at Juliet. The last instruction also seems to indicate, that MSR986 messed up again and exited the rwy turning right onto Alpha.
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stingray0
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2011, 10:22:18 AM »

Here's the TWR audio
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 10:36:08 AM by stingray0 » Logged
stingray0
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2011, 10:36:44 AM »

Here's the GND audio
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sonnycol
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2011, 12:56:25 PM »

Thank goodness for good visibility. Something like this happens under IFR day or night, with low RVR, and you're looking at another Tenerife.

It's another example of the need for seamless awareness and communication between tower and ground controllers.

And it's another case of language /communication barrier causing confusion contributing to an incident, especially on the part of EgyptAir. Everyday stuff at JFK, and everyday risk.

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aevins
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2011, 02:00:21 PM »

Main issues aside, I'm troubled by the fact that a crew who had just been involved in a serious runway incursion choose to and was allowed to continue on. This is of concern from a human factors standpoint. The stresses invoked on crews involved in such incidents are enough to distract them preforming their duties.

Flight crews involved in Category A runway incursions should be treated the same as controllers are - quarantined and debriefed/downloaded.

I look forward to reading the NTSB Report.
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Comfirm31L
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2011, 12:21:05 AM »

Main issues aside, I'm troubled by the fact that a crew who had just been involved in a serious runway incursion choose to and was allowed to continue on. This is of concern from a human factors standpoint. The stresses invoked on crews involved in such incidents are enough to distract them preforming their duties.

Flight crews involved in Category A runway incursions should be treated the same as controllers are - quarantined and debriefed/downloaded.

I look forward to reading the NTSB Report.

But that would result in a canceled flight... and we CANT have that.  rolleyes
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liveatcnoob
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2011, 09:35:54 AM »

Sounds to me like the ground controller had a role in this. I couldn't understand some of her transmissions and I'm a native English speaker in a quiet room. Her last transmission on the mp3 makes it sound like she's gargling. Can't imagine what it sounded like in a noisy cockpit.
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shtank
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2011, 10:07:56 AM »

It certainly sounds like MSR messed up big time. First of all, those broken lines indicating a runway are plain as day and you never cross those unless you have clearance to enter the runway (especially with the new rules where no matter what the controller wants you to do they have to clear you to cross or enter a runway). Also, any time you taxi onto a runway, you look both ways even if the controller cleared you. You never rely on a controller when entering a runway.
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MikeNYC
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« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2011, 10:47:32 AM »

This also happened in daylight, good WX too.

Seems this got picked up by various media outlets:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/near_miss_on_jfk_runway_kLWyQHsO3KS1ncroiRTx6J
http://gothamist.com/2011/06/22/lufthansa_egyptair_planes_nearly_co.php
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/22/earlyshow/main20073243.shtml
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/22/faa-investigating-near-miss-on-jfk-runway/
(among many others).

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spliffer
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« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2011, 10:53:29 AM »

Like George Carlin said "isn't it really a near hit.  Cause a near miss is a hit."
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MikeNYC
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« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2011, 12:20:40 PM »

Darlyn, JFK has ASDE-X (looks a bit like this: http://www.aero-farm.com/public/271043-asde-x.JPG ) surface area radar. I'm sure the surface movements were recorded. The system can also warn of impending collisions, and it may have done so in this case. The ASDE-X recordings could be released with the final report.

Here's some more info on the system: http://www.sensis.com/docs/128/p/

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darlyn
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« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2011, 12:41:00 PM »

I meant actual video footage from a security cam or something, not ground surveillance.
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MikeNYC
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« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2011, 12:46:52 PM »

Darlyn, I understood that... but it's more likely that you'll see an official release of ASDE-X recording than a security camera operated by Port Authority or other organization than FAA. It would probably also yield more accurate data. It's not as "TV-friendly" so not as interesting on YouTube, but it is the official record. We could see something like this come from the FAA: http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/videos/media/simulation.html (based on an actual event).
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StuSEL
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« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2011, 02:28:03 PM »

Sounds to me like the ground controller had a role in this. I couldn't understand some of her transmissions and I'm a native English speaker in a quiet room. Her last transmission on the mp3 makes it sound like she's gargling. Can't imagine what it sounded like in a noisy cockpit.
"Egypt Air 986 Heavy, Kennedy Ground, Runway 22R taxi left turn on Bravo, hold short of Delta."
"Egypt Air 986, turn left on Bravo, hold short Delta."
She said it twice! And he read back twice!

You can hear the commotion in the ground recording. It's unreal. Aevins, you are totally correct. I can't believe they were allowed to continue.

Can't wait for the FAA committee's report on what we should do next. "All aircraft must be provided progressive taxi instructions by the ground controller." FAA Order JO 7110.65 Change 10. rolleyes
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shtank
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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2011, 04:09:28 PM »

@StuSEL, I think he knew to go on B, but missed it and figured he would just correct that by making a U-turn. Like I said earlier, it really is hard to have a runway incursion in an airport like kennedy if you are a vigilant pilot and not someone who just drives the plane around till they take off. When i took my PP training, i always wondered why you were allowed to log hours on the ground. My instructor said "because you start flying the plane as soon as you turn the engine on". he was right.

And I would really love to see the ASDE-X surveillance on this.
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