Author Topic: Crash on Approach to Akron Fulton International Airport on 10 November  (Read 15160 times)

Offline GeoffSM1

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The approach transmissions from the BAe-125-700A corporate jet which crashed with the loss of the 9 souls on board. RIP.  No reference to a technical problem it seems.
I have also included the transmissions which immediately followed the final transmissions from stricken aircraft - no reference made to the crash.

I have copied the following from the Aviation Safety Network:

19:54 UTC / 14:54 local time:
KAKR 101954Z AUTO 24007KT 1 1/2SM BR BKN004 OVC009 11/09 A2995 RMK AO2 SLP142 T01060094
Wind: 240° at 7 knots; Visibility: 1,5 miles in mist; Broken clouds at 400 feet AGL, overcast cloud deck at 900 feet AGL; Temperature: 11°C; Dewpoint: 9°C; pressure 1014.3 mb
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 06:48:09 PM by GeoffSM1 »



Offline mheming2

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Re: Crash on Approach to Akron Fulton International Airport on 10 November
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2015, 10:04:08 AM »
fter pulling the flight aware data for the flight, I decided to look into the stall speed of a hawker. I came across an NTSB report that sounds exactly what eye witness reports are saying.

 “As the airplane slowed through [approximately] 126 knots [indicated airspeed],” the pilot told the NTSB, “it abruptly rolled off/ dropped the right wing and the nose fell rapidly.”

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2006-09-13/post-maintenance-stall-tests-raise-safety-concerns

Per Flight aware: the last indicated speed was 127 kts

Offline GeoffSM1

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Re: Crash on Approach to Akron Fulton International Airport on 10 November
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2015, 11:55:32 AM »
Having regard to the low altitude of the aircraft as it was making its final approach to the airport and other factors, I would be interested to know whether it is likely that there could have been a significant difference between the FlightAware speed and the indicated speed.

Offline Rick108

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Re: Crash on Approach to Akron Fulton International Airport on 10 November
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2015, 09:25:40 PM »
Having regard to the low altitude of the aircraft as it was making its final approach to the airport and other factors, I would be interested to know whether it is likely that there could have been a significant difference between the FlightAware speed and the indicated speed.
FlightAware shows ground speed - that's all it knows.  It records the speed of the flight over the ground as the GPS coordinates change.  Ground speed differs from indicated air speed (the number that shoes on the pilot's airspeed indicator) by factors such as wind velocity and direction, altitude, and to a lesser degree, air temperature and pressure.  For example, an aircraft might have an indicated air speed of 120 kts, which might be a true air speed of 140 kts (the speed the aircraft is actually moving through the air at, say, 8000').  Then, add a 25 kt tailwind, and FlightAware will show the speed as 165 (ground speed), while the indicated air speed (the value on the pilot's airspeed indicator) will actually be 120 kts.

Offline bottleworks

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Re: Crash on Approach to Akron Fulton International Airport on 10 November
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2015, 11:50:27 PM »
240° at 7 knots.

I wouldn't dismiss his thought just because we don't have an exact IAS.  Sometimes you have to infer things when you don't have direct evidence. 

I'm betting IAS was pretty close to ground speed. 


Offline Rick108

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Re: Crash on Approach to Akron Fulton International Airport on 10 November
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2015, 08:27:50 AM »
240° at 7 knots.

I wouldn't dismiss his thought just because we don't have an exact IAS.  Sometimes you have to infer things when you don't have direct evidence. 

I'm betting IAS was pretty close to ground speed. 

Yeah, sorry - I should have made that clear.  I wasn't trying to dismiss the idea that this may have been a stall, or even that IAS might have been equal, or close to, the reported GS.  I was just trying to correct the assumption that FlightAware was giving us IAS, for those who didn't already know.   :-)

Offline VASAviation

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Re: Crash on Approach to Akron Fulton International Airport on 10 November
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2015, 09:38:08 AM »
No tracker is able to show IAS as it is just shown in the airplane. Every tracker on the web, even real radar screens, show GS as they record the movement of the aircraft in regard to the ground.

But, we can speculate about the IAS if we know variants as altitude, weight or current wind. Knowing the GS, of course :wink:

Offline InterpreDemon

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Re: Crash on Approach to Akron Fulton International Airport on 10 November
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 10:40:30 AM »
...not to mention the angle of the auger. For example, at 127 GS they could have actually been going 180 in a 45 degree dive, twice the GS in a 60 degree dive, or over twice the speed of sound in an 85 degree dive.

As to speculating on IAS, we could try taking the pilots' or controllers' word for it, since IAS is the only language they speak.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 10:50:12 AM by InterpreDemon »

Offline NTSB409

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Re: Crash on Approach to Akron Fulton International Airport on 10 November
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2015, 11:39:20 AM »
Winds 240 at 7 on a runway heading and ground track of roughly 249 with shallow flight path angle and low altitude on final approach path.  So GS will not be much less than IAS.

Offline mheming2

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Re: Crash on Approach to Akron Fulton International Airport on 10 November
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 12:12:45 AM »
@Brad G. I just want to be clear that I wasn't making the assumption that it IAS = GS. I just found that in this case, it seemed eerily similar.

To be noted.. I'm not a pilot nor an aviation expert. I'm simply an aviation enthusiast like many others on here. I find pulling in a huge amount of data from sources like flight aware, witness reports, and also historical information extremely interesting. Having all of this raw data will allow experts and aviation professionals to derive actionable insights to clear the path to a safer future of aviation.

Offline GeoffSM1

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Re: Crash on Approach to Akron Fulton International Airport on 10 November
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2016, 06:09:57 PM »
More, courtesy the FAA web site. I have converted the wav file (30k) to mp3 (2k) format to comply with Forum requirements but it is otherwise unchanged.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 07:37:22 PM by GeoffSM1 »