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| | |-+  DAL 109 Madrid/KATL Diverted to JFK loss of crew oxygen
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Author Topic: DAL 109 Madrid/KATL Diverted to JFK loss of crew oxygen  (Read 9990 times)
InterpreDemon
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« on: November 27, 2013, 04:27:05 PM »

On 11/27/2013 DAL 109 had a leak to depletion of crew oxygen system out over Atlantic, rules required descent to 10,000 feet and diversion to nearest airport, which was JFK. Declared emergency at shortly after 1700Z.

ARINC communications edited from HF 6577/5550 archive.

Curious whether flight planning allows for extra fuel burn if this occurs anywhere along route, like if it happened two or three hours earlier. Not many nearby alternate options along that route, though being westbound they probably had extra fuel and might even burn about the same down low..
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KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
flyflyfly
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2013, 06:57:34 PM »

DAL109 eventually checked in on New York Center / Atlantic Oceanic High (133.5) shortly after 1800Z. They had to fly around a thunderstorm - and explained their oxygen emergency once again. Relevant parts attached.
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RonR
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2013, 09:55:26 AM »

And then DAL109 came on NY Appr on 132.4...This audio file is all the way to landing...edited for time...

Ron
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flyflyfly
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2013, 01:57:24 PM »

Nice - collaborative effort to provide full coverage wink.

Interesting that JFK had alerted emergency services. Probably means the original reason why DAL109 declared the emergency wasn't forwarded (or they just wanted to be extra careful).
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RonR
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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2013, 03:45:26 PM »

I think alerting emergency services is SOP whenever an aircraft declares an emergency.  And it sounds like the emergency trucks were only on standby, they may not have actually gotten on the road or they weren't on station yet ("DAL 109, you may or may not see emergency vehicles")...
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2013, 01:09:27 PM »

It's not over until the fat guy digs deep....

Ground ops during the landing, they did scramble the equipment.

Compiled from ground and Delta Ops frequencies.
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KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
flyflyfly
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2013, 04:45:22 PM »

It's not over ...
Haha, part IV. Great catch! smiley

A lot of effort caused by the "depleted crew oxygen bottle". But good to know the services are ready - even when not needed at all.
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Jetblast1
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2013, 07:50:01 PM »

I'm sure it's normal procedure, but would it be because oxygen is flamable when an electrical spark would occur somewhere in the cockpit? (For example an overheated window heater that can set it off) Huh
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 08:34:35 AM by 757-rules » Logged
RonR
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2013, 08:25:49 PM »

Oxygen is not the same as natural gas or hydrogen; yes it does aid combustion but it doesn't explode when exposed to a flame or spark like, for example, natural gas or hydrogen would, so I don't think that's the reason for the initial emergency call.  I could be wrong, but I don't think that's it.  My first thought was that they declared an emergency because, with the empty O2 bottles, the flight crew no longer had an emergency source of oxygen if something else had gone wrong, like cabin depressurization at cruising altitude.  If they would have lost cabin pressure at cruise and the crew had no supplemental source of air/oxygen, that would have been a problem.  That would explain why they immediately descended to 10000 feet. 
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2013, 11:22:28 PM »

§ 121.333 Supplemental oxygen for emergency descent and for first aid; turbine engine powered airplanes with pressurized cabins.

(b) Crewmembers. When operating at flight altitudes above 10,000 feet, the certificate holder shall supply enough oxygen to comply with §121.329, but not less than a two-hour supply for each flight crewmember on flight deck duty. The required two hours supply is that quantity of oxygen necessary for a constant rate of descent from the airplane's maximum certificated operating altitude to 10,000 feet in ten minutes and followed by 110 minutes at 10,000 feet. The oxygen required in the event of cabin pressurization failure by §121.337 may be included in determining the supply required for flight crewmembers on flight deck duty.

Of course it did not sound like they had ANY oxygen left, so I guess they flunked the 110 minute requirement, but I do not know why there is a 110 minute requirement at 10,000 feet except perhaps to deal with smoke in the cockpit.
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KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
flyflyfly
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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2013, 06:41:40 AM »

but I do not know why there is a 110 minute requirement at 10,000 feet except perhaps to deal with smoke in the cockpit.

Brain performance starts degrading due to lack of oxygen at and above 10,000ft, since the body can no longer fully compensate (at least, that's the "official" number). But below FL100 there's the 250kt speed restriction. So, for a fast jet somewhere over the atlantic, descending below FL100 isn't an option. That's likely the reason for the "oxygen for 110 minutes at 10,000ft rule".

In practice, flying at 10,000ft without oxygen isn't an issue. The real problems only start when going even higher. But this is aviation - everyone likes large safety margins wink.

Interestingly enough, for non-commercial flights oxygen is only required starting at FL120 (so, apparently someone thinks there's a difference between commercial and non-commercial pilot brains... smiley).
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 06:43:43 AM by flyflyfly » Logged
InterpreDemon
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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2013, 12:52:56 PM »

Just a few nits to pick for the fun of it. In the US, "flight levels" begin above the transition altitude of 18k, not sure what the TA is in ICAO airspace but I think it is generally 5500, with variations from country to country. I am also not sure the speed restriction applies to IFR traffic in ICAO space, either, as I think it is primarily intended for aircraft relying upon visual separation. Some places like China have no speed restriction. In any event the controller could allow a deviation from that restriction. I think I'll have to pay attention to the next SAR operation I hear out beyond 12 miles and see whether the CG aircraft report their below-18k altitude as flight levels. In many years of listening I don't think I ever have.
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KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
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HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
flyflyfly
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2013, 02:54:53 PM »

I only know European regulations and have never flown in FAA-land, so it's possible airspace is organized differently there. Shouldn't be too different though.

Over here, the default is 5000ft MSL + 2000ft ground for VFR traffic: below, you switch to airport QNH and use altitudes in "feet", and above, you use the standard pressure setting and altitudes in "FL". For IFR aircraft the transition altitude is given explcitly (also part of ATIS) - I can't remeber any TA higher than FL70.

And the speed restriction certainly also applies to IFR over here. Below FL100  (10,000ft smiley) VFR and IFR traffic is mixed. It's mostly "class E airspace", so VFR aircraft do not need to be in contact with any ATC at all. It'd be too dangerous to mix fast-flying IFR with completely uncontrolled VFR traffic.
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martyj19
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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2013, 09:22:11 PM »

I'm not sure where "too different" begins, but it's quite different in the US.  The transition altitude is uniformly 18000 over the entire continental US.  Airspace above that is Class A, IFR only.  The vast majority of airspace below that is Class E, and there is definitely mixed IFR and VFR traffic at all altitudes; it seems to be working out okay so far.  We have Class B around the largest airports, and then Class C and D around the medium and smaller ones.  In B, C, D as is true everywhere radio contact and a transponder is required.  Speed restrictions do apply under 10,000 and within the lateral boundary of Class B.

I dare say that a lot of VFR traffic that is going cross-country will ask for VFR advisories, and thus will get traffic point-outs, and my experience is that it's almost always granted.  The rated pilots that I know will very often file IFR even on good days when they are on a cross-country mission in order to get the extra level of separation services and immediate help if the weather is sketchy.

Also, we don't use the terms QNE, QNH or QFE.  It's just "Southwest 1542, descend and maintain one five thousand, Manchester altimeter 30.03" cleared to descend from the flight levels.

You will see the occasional US military field report a TAF with QNHnnnnINS (but they report it in inches as indicated by INS).

« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 09:44:52 PM by martyj19 » Logged
StuSEL
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« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2013, 02:09:51 AM »

In B, C, D as is true everywhere radio contact and a transponder is required.
There's no transponder requirement in Class D. You just need two-way radio communication. Otherwise that's all correct!
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