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Author Topic: DAL140 JFK  (Read 5642 times)
Fryy
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« on: December 03, 2006, 10:43:50 PM »

Dunno if anyone else heard this, but it totally floored me.

About 3 minutes in a Delta captain accuses local of not having separation between himself and the preceeding departure.

==========

Local: Delta 140 heavy, contact New York Departure.

Delta 140: Delta 140 roger that, I think our spacing was a little close to the 75 infront of us, only 3.5 or 4 miles after takeoff...

There's a pause, local's probably talking to ground or someone else in the tower cab, local comes back:

Local: Sorry, didn't copy any of that, who was it and what'd you say?

Delta 140: Delta 140, and I said we didn't have required spacing after takeoff.

Local (quite incrediously): Didn't have WHAT?

Delta 140: I said I didn't think we had required spacing behind that 75 infront of us.

Local comes right back, completely confident: I absolutely disagree sir, please call the tower upon landing.

==========

That's not all word for word, but it goes on from there, the Delta captain mentioning his TCAS and asking what local sees right then (7 miles).

I just couldn't believe that a captain actually made that accusation (and neither could local, if you listen) right on frequency.

I definately *could* believe the controller's response and confidence in himself, but the captain just seemed way out of line. I don't think that's his call to make or comment on, especially in front of who knows how many people on that frequency. A few other captains praised Local when they were given instructions in the next 30 minutes, at least three or four.

I was wondering if anyone had a clue as to what could come of that for either Local or the Delta captain, or if anyone else had the same/different thoughts as I did?




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Adrian8
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2006, 11:21:14 PM »

Wow. shocked  The controller was clearly unimpressed that the pilot was calling him out on the frequency.
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davolijj
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2006, 11:43:28 PM »

Just so everyone knows the full context of the rules...radar separation requirements for this scenario are as follows:

Quote from: 7110.65   5-5-4e   Minima
WAKE TURBULENCE APPLICATION
 
e. Separate aircraft operating directly behind, or directly behind and less than 1,000 feet below, or following an aircraft conducting an instrument approach by:

NOTE-
Consider parallel runways less than 2,500 feet apart as a single runway because of the possible effects of wake turbulence.


1. Heavy behind heavy- 4 miles.

2.
Large/heavy behind B757- 4 miles.

3. Small behind B757- 5 miles.

4. Small/large behind heavy - 5 miles.

If there was only 3.5 miles then the pilot was right, they wouldn't have had required separation.  I really don't think that was the case though...the controllers at JFK are consumate professionals and separating airplanes is what they get paid to do.
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JD
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2006, 11:31:10 AM »

Ok, so the deal with JFK tower is; They can scream out anger to every pilot they want to, but as soon as a pilot tells them something its all wrong?

We have the Iberia incident, SingCargo, Comair + + + ...

Come on!
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digger
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2006, 01:29:28 PM »

Actually, I thought both parties handled themselves professionally here. If the pilot thought (apparently based on what his TCAS told him, once airborne), he wasn't given 4 miles separation, he has a legitamte reason to complain to the controller that didn't give him the required separation. On the other hand, if the controller believed (as he obviously did), that he provided adequate separation, he should have no problem with having the thing reviewed, which he obviously doesn't. (Although, I can certainly see the controller's point in saying that that's a, "serious accusation to make on frequency.")

Compare this incident (both the pilot's behavior, and that of the controller)to the Air Canada clip where the pilot and controller have a battle of wills, on frequency, and see if you don't agree.

Thread: http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php/topic,1836.0.html

(Note to Fryy--Thanks for providing the clip, but I think the timing between the prior departure and Delta 140's takeoff clearance adds quite a bit of necesasary detail in judging how much distance may have actually existed between the two aircraft. Someone in the other thread on this subject(sorry, I forget who), tried to do a rough calculation based on the minute and ten seconds between the takeoff clearances. If that earlier exchange were preserved here, it might be more enlightening in a discussion somewhere down the road.)
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Fryy
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2006, 06:40:24 PM »

Quote
(Note to Fryy--Thanks for providing the clip, but I think the timing between the prior departure and Delta 140's takeoff clearance adds quite a bit of necesasary detail in judging how much distance may have actually existed between the two aircraft. Someone in the other thread on this subject(sorry, I forget who), tried to do a rough calculation based on the minute and ten seconds between the takeoff clearances. If that earlier exchange were preserved here, it might be more enlightening in a discussion somewhere down the road.)


Okay, I got the clip from the very beginning until the end of the DAL140/TWR communication with no edits made. Hope this is all of it.
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Check Airman
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2006, 07:59:09 PM »

I'm not trying to point fingers here, but why did he take off if he didn't have the required spacing?if he was right behind, he must have had some idea of the spacing between them, even if the 75 climbed out of TCAS vertical range.

Must agree that both parties maintained their professionalism though. Most unlike the Air Canada pilot.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 08:01:40 PM by Check Airman » Logged
PHL Approach
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2006, 08:19:23 PM »

If you factor in some times for TIPH and rolling time for the first aircraft. It comes out to spot on a minute between those two aircrafts rolling times.
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EivlEvo
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2006, 12:29:30 PM »

It sounds to me like the pilots were just passing along a heads up to the controllers. Like hey... just so you guys are aware if there's any error, we we're showing 3.5miles. I suppose its hard to do that politely esp with JFK. But... the pilot's calling later would've been pointless as the data would've been just, well obsolete.

I'd have to agree though, on frequency it probably wasn't the greatest.

How else to cross check data though?

~DAVE
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phlcontroller
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2006, 05:40:50 PM »

Thats the stupidest thing to do on frequency. Especially in the hostile enviornment in which controllers are working today.  angry angry
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