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Author Topic: distress or urgency  (Read 20140 times)
busy
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« on: February 05, 2014, 11:56:58 PM »

The pilot declares emergency but says "PAN". So is it distress or urgency?
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Jetblast1
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2014, 01:42:26 PM »

This was way back in 2005, and you can hear PAN PAN PAN, declaring fuel emergency, so it's not a distress, but normal telling ATC they have to divert.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/print.main?id=2255628
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NEILCM
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2014, 06:12:12 PM »

Not always used just for diverts,

Pan Pan in my view is a Call that indicates that you want attention, you have an issue, you not falling out the sky however need priority and don't want to hang around. The situation isn't life threatening yet but has a very high risk of become worst if not attended to quickly.

Mayday indicates that you need to get back / Down to an airfield ASAP, you dont have anytime to wait and need to be given priority above anything / anyone else. Live threatening situation has developed.

Some pilots may call a mayday for a medical emergency with 1 person for example if its clear that without the highest priority that person is likely to die. I.e Heart Attack.
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Jetblast1
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2014, 06:14:57 PM »

Yes, I understand, but I am referring to this particular audio, where he declared PAN for diversion "We have a low fuel emergency for our diversion to Syracuse"....

Some more about this:

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/listener-forum/is-emergency-always-a-distress/

« Last Edit: February 09, 2014, 06:22:10 PM by Jetblast1 » Logged
martyj19
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2014, 08:50:30 AM »

The AIM section on "low fuel emergency" is 5-5-15 (5).

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0505.html

In this case the declared emergency defines the handling that will be done.  The word Pan is very rarely used in the US and in this case has little if any effect since the emergency is declared.  Were I doing the transmission I would have simply declared the emergency without either Pan or Mayday.  Also, if you declare an emergency there can be a report required afterward.

Reminds me of a time I heard someone "declaring a missed approach" and it must have affected the controller's heart rate because he was admonished not to use the word "declaring" unless it were to declare an emergency.
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kaybee327
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2014, 06:47:11 PM »

Nielcm

You are correct with Mayday and Pan however there are generally four categories of emergency.

1. Mayday
2. Mayday Relay (Where you are not in emergency but have seen or heard someone who is and they have not been answered)
3. Pan
4 Securite


The ICAO definition of number 4 is :

Securite (/seɪˈkjʊərɨteɪ/; from French sécurité — safety) indicates a message about safety, such as a hazard to navigation or weather information.

Also I know it does not seem to apply to the USA but according to ICAO pilots should us one of the four categories and NOT " I am declaring an emergency" as non standard terminology can lead to errors , omissions or delays.

Regards

Keith

Retired Air Traffic Controller and Pilot

PS If interested a copy of ACP135(F) COMMUNICATIONS INSTRUCTIONS DISTRESS AND RESCUE PROCEDURES can be found at http://1drv.ms/MvlaTv

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phil-s
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 12:49:38 AM »

What does the "Charlie, Charlie " refer to?
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RonR
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 08:46:30 AM »

"Charlie, Charlie" is another way to say "Correct" or "Yes".  The controller was confirming the number of souls on board and the KLM pilot responded by saying "Charlie, Charlie" to say "Yes, that is correct".  You don't really hear that so much among US pilots (and I think Canadian pilots too) but you'll hear it more often from non-US pilots.

Ron
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Jetblast1
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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2014, 05:38:33 PM »

Just came to mind: In the miltitary they use BINGO fuel for point of no return.
Maybe a civil controller would also understand BINGO HOLD -  For minimal fuel to reach destination?

Edit: I mean for diversion .....
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 05:42:25 PM by Jetblast1 » Logged
martyj19
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2014, 05:19:04 AM »

Just came to mind: In the miltitary they use BINGO fuel for point of no return.
Maybe a civil controller would also understand BINGO HOLD -  For minimal fuel to reach destination?

Edit: I mean for diversion .....

Not at all likely.  It is always best in any situation to learn and use the standard phraseology that is published in the AIM.
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svoynick
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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2014, 02:17:56 AM »

Just came to mind: In the miltitary they use BINGO fuel for point of no return.
Maybe a civil controller would also understand BINGO HOLD -  For minimal fuel to reach destination?

Edit: I mean for diversion .....

Not at all likely.  It is always best in any situation to learn and use the standard phraseology that is published in the AIM.
Absolutely correct.  As a matter of fact, I've read some kind of an incident report where a general aviation pilot was inbound short on fuel, and told ATC "bingo fuel."  Apparently they either didn't understand it at all, or didn't prioritize it as he might have intended, and therefore didn't give him the priority handling he might have received had he used proper, clear terminology about his fuel emergency.  If I can find that reference, I'll post it.

Edited to add:
Here it is.  The situation resulted in a runway incursion incident, and the inappropriate use of the phrase "bingo fuel" was one element of the situation (although perhaps not the only one):
FAASTeam Notice published by FAA:
http://www.faasafety.gov/SPANS/noticeView.aspx?nid=3964

Proper terminology for civilian ATC comms:
"Minimum Fuel"
"Fuel Emergency"

Each has a specific meaning.

I'd like to revisit this suggestion, because given the above, I think it is actually potentially dangerous:
Quote from: Jetblast1
Maybe a civil controller would also understand BINGO HOLD -  For minimal fuel to reach destination?"
Can you find the phrase "BINGO HOLD" anywhere, in any reference related to aviation, military or civilian?  And you think maybe a controller would understand it if you used it?  I'm not confident that I'm precisely sure what you mean by it, even given your additional narrative and the "Edit" you added.

Respectfully, but firmly: pleeeeease don't make up a new phrase, and imagine that "maybe a controller would understand it..."  

If you know the standard terminology (like "minimum fuel" or "fuel emergency") then use it as intended.  If you don't know the right standard phrase for a situation, then if you're going to make up something, you should make up a normal English sentence that explains, in plain, clear language, what you are trying to communicate.  Your safety, and the safety of those around you in the air and on the ground, may depend on clear communication with ATC, as was demonstrated in the linked example above.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 03:42:28 AM by svoynick » Logged
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