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Author Topic: Eagle Flight 3906 skids off the runway ..  (Read 16039 times)
Аэрофлот Jr.
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« on: January 06, 2009, 10:29:43 PM »

Happened on January 5th at KSYR . Eagle Flight 3906 from KORD skids off icy runway while landing on RWY 10 , causing airport to close and other approaching and holding aircrafts to divert to alternate airports . 

It's edited by me, full coverage, no sliences and its definitely interesting . Check it out .

Thanks to our KSYR feeder, Peter for letting me know the time of this accident . =)   

* EGF 3906 skids off runway [KSYR 1.5.09].mp3 (7447.45 KB - downloaded 3730 times.)
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sincerely, Rae
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 10:59:59 PM »

Excellent job, Rae.  That was a lot of work you did there and this has to be the longest (but certainly interesting) clip in the Audio clips forum.  At one point Dave had a limit of 5Mb but it seems he may have relaxed it in recent years.

My apologies to the community up front for the relatively poor reception of the ground-based aircraft and even tower on this night.  The feed is about 9 miles away from the airport but I am working on trying to relocate all or a part (ground and clearance) of the feed somewhere up at the airport.    Stay tuned over the next month for that.

The story behind this accident was that we had a line of moderate freezing rain move over the airport about 5 to 10 minutes before this aircraft landed.  In fact, the previous aircraft that had landed (I believe a regional jet, too) almost slid off a taxiway while taxiing off the main runway.  That pilot reported a braking action of "nill" and "poor" and tower was in the process of coordinating with the airport operations to investigate the ice problems on the taxiway when this aircraft landed.

The local media reported that the accident aircraft fishtailed a few times after touching down, then rolled all the way to the end of the 9,000 foot runway before going off.  An aircraft mechanic with whom I spoke today told me that the aircraft actually went off the runway at the end and took out an approach light bar.

Here is the runway diagram with the annotation:

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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2009, 11:06:27 PM »

Just noticed in the clip that the previous aircraft that had complained of the nill braking on the taxiway ended up stopping on the taxiway and would not move until a tug came out to get him.  The tower controller talks about that aircraft as well as the one that went off the end of the runway, just for clarification.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
makonyy15
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2009, 11:10:37 PM »

Nice clip. Weird how none of the flights affected are showing in flight aware. Comair 1452 and Cactus 828 don't show up around the time frame of the incident on Monday, which are the 2 affected flights I kept hearing. Doesn't sound like a fun night though. I wouldn't be surprised if another incident like this occurs with the current system hitting the northeast tonight and tomorrow.

Edit: Did this accident occur Sunday or Monday? I see the reroutings showing up on 1/4, which would be Sunday. Just curious.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 11:17:24 PM by makonyy15 » Logged
Аэрофлот Jr.
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2009, 11:15:13 PM »

Nice clip. Weird how none of the flights affected are showing in flight aware. Comair 1452 and Cactus 828 don't show up around the time frame of the incident on Monday, which are the 2 affected flights I kept hearing. Doesn't sound like a fun night though. I wouldn't be surprised if another incident like this occurs with the current system hitting the northeast tonight and tomorrow.

Thank you , yea i checked the flight aware too but no luckk . Cactus was from KCLT and Comair was from KCVG as on flight aware .
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Аэрофлот Jr.
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2009, 11:18:18 PM »

Excellent job, Rae.  That was a lot of work you did there and this has to be the longest (but certainly interesting) clip in the Audio clips forum.  At one point Dave had a limit of 5Mb but it seems he may have relaxed it in recent years.

My apologies to the community up front for the relatively poor reception of the ground-based aircraft and even tower on this night.  The feed is about 9 miles away from the airport but I am working on trying to relocate all or a part (ground and clearance) of the feed somewhere up at the airport.    Stay tuned over the next month for that.

The story behind this accident was that we had a line of moderate freezing rain move over the airport about 5 to 10 minutes before this aircraft landed.  In fact, the previous aircraft that had landed (I believe a regional jet, too) almost slid off a taxiway while taxiing off the main runway.  That pilot reported a braking action of "nill" and "poor" and tower was in the process of coordinating with the airport operations to investigate the ice problems on the taxiway when this aircraft landed.

The local media reported that the accident aircraft fishtailed a few times after touching down, then rolled all the way to the end of the 9,000 foot runway before going off.  An aircraft mechanic with whom I spoke today told me that the aircraft actually went off the runway at the end and took out an approach light bar.

Here is the runway diagram with the annotation:



Thank you , i didnt include full conversation between previous aircraft landed and tower, i kinda 'focused' on EGF 3906 and other diversions .

Very nice Info/Explanation .
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sincerely, Rae
darry2385
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2009, 07:14:58 AM »

great work getting this together!  saw it on the news the other morning (i live in a suburb of 'cuse) and was going through the archives trying to hear it all.
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Аэрофлот Jr.
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2009, 08:59:36 AM »

great work getting this together!  saw it on the news the other morning (i live in a suburb of 'cuse) and was going through the archives trying to hear it all.

Thank you , it was 0200z all the way to 0400z  (many silences in the achieves as you might noticed)
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davolijj
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2009, 09:37:28 AM »

Nice clip.  Man does that bring back memories of working the ramp in the frozen tundra.  At least those guys don't lose their sense of humor.

AWE1724: "...say the designator for Elmira again?"
SYR: "Just like it sounds sir, ULW."
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JD
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2009, 09:46:36 AM »

Edit: Did this accident occur Sunday or Monday? I see the reroutings showing up on 1/4, which would be Sunday. Just curious.

This happened around 9:40pm Eastern time Sunday, Jan 4, '09.  Rae was using Zulu time and date in his initial post. 
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ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
otto_pilot
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2009, 10:36:50 AM »

is this accident just an issue of the airport not know the actual conditions of the runway? Also this is an accident that was weather related and the runway conditions were not properly assessed by the airport so are the pilots still at fault?(if that is the case.)  or could this be written off as not knowing how bad the actual conditions on the runway were and its just an accident were no single party is at fault.
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tower: right delta ground point niner
pilot: Uh tower did you mean to say ground point 8 or do you want us to try them on point 9.
tower: Oh yea point 8 would work better, wouldnt it
makonyy15
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« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2009, 10:46:10 AM »

Edit: Did this accident occur Sunday or Monday? I see the reroutings showing up on 1/4, which would be Sunday. Just curious.

This happened around 9:40pm Eastern time Sunday, Jan 4, '09.  Rae was using Zulu time and date in his initial post. 


Ahhh of course. Thanks for the clarification.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2009, 10:55:40 AM »

is this accident just an issue of the airport not know the actual conditions of the runway?

My Reader's Digest response is this:  The weather conditions deteriorated too rapidly for the airport or the accident aircraft to respond.  The only clue ATC had was the poor braking PIREP on the taxiway by the previous arrival, who called it in just after landing.  However,  being that the Eagle Flight was right behind this aircraft on approach, there really wasn't enough time to for anyone to digest and respond to the information.

To expanded a bit more:  As far as I remember the freezing rain that night was somewhat of a surprise and not forecasted well enough in advance by weather services.  Hence the fact that the airport operations was somewhat caught off guard by the moderate icy precipitation when it did cover the airport (my speculation only).

I am not an airline transport pilot, but based on the many exchanges I have heard due to my flying out of this "winter" airport I have learned that airline transport pilots place a lot of importance and faith in runway braking PIREPS (pilot reports).  In fact, all (?) airlines have operation manuals that specifically regulate what braking report they can and cannot accept.  From what I have heard most airlines do not allow their pilots to land on a runway that was previously reported as poor or no braking, for obvious reasons.  

Another point is that these braking reports must be current, which I believe means they cannot be older than 20 minutes.  When the tower controller does not have a braking report more current than 20 minutes (at least at SYR) they request one from the airport operations, who then takes a vehicle down the runway to test the braking.

Again, in this particular case the weather deteriorated to moderate freezing rain within 5 to 10 minutes, which appeared to be not enough time for the airport to respond.  



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ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
darry2385
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« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2009, 03:31:28 PM »


As far as I remember the freezing rain that night was somewhat of a surprise and not forecasted well enough in advance by weather services.  

that's what i recall as well.  came out of nowhere, rained hard for 5-15 minutes, then it stopped.  looked out my window and there was a sheen on my car. 
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aviator_06
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« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2009, 08:38:05 PM »

Nice Clip Wink
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Аэрофлот Jr.
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« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2009, 08:40:26 PM »

Nice Clip Wink

(: Thank you
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sincerely, Rae
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« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2009, 10:35:14 PM »

is this accident just an issue of the airport not know the actual conditions of the runway? Also this is an accident that was weather related and the runway conditions were not properly assessed by the airport so are the pilots still at fault?(if that is the case.)  or could this be written off as not knowing how bad the actual conditions on the runway were and its just an accident were no single party is at fault.


Based upon past posts and listening to the audio clip, it sounds like an aircraft of a similar type (ERJ-145) landed prior to Eagle Flight 3906, who reported braking action to the tower (as the local controller likely asked, we don't know from the clip but controllers are required to solicit braking action advisories when those advisories are in effect).  We do know that the aircraft that landed prior to Eagle Flight was stuck on the taxiway because it was icy.  This does not say much about the condition of the runway as airport operations will tend to focus on the runway conditions before the taxiway conditions.  Braking actions are to be taken at a regular interval, which at Syracuse, it is likely that this would have been done had an aircraft not landed and reported braking action within that time frame (which I believe is 20 minutes).  With the sudden onset of freezing precipitation, this isn't always possible and it sounds like the weather deteriorated faster than ground crews could keep up with maintaining the runway.

The controller sounds like they reported the correct information to Eagle Flight 3906.  Pilots do rely heavily on braking action reports as it is the only thing they have to go by during adverse weather conditions.  However, this does not preclude the pilot from continuing to land if conditions reported are acceptable.  According to the FARs, the PIC has final authority over the flight and further, that if in their judgment a safe landing cannot be make, they can declare a missed approach or go around.  In this case, a missed approach would likely have been the call made.  Since this was freezing rain and not snow, judging runway conditions while flying is difficult.  Thus the reliance on the braking action report. 

Also keep in mind that ATC has no authority on runway closures.  Only Airport Management and/or Military authority can close a runway.  ATC coordinates with these parties when a closure may be necessary but the final call and command to close a runway comes from those parties, not ATC.  ATC can only enforce the closure (and only to an extent).  And yes, airport management/operations is responsible for maintaining the runways, which sounds like that they have been trying to do just that.  However, they do not throw down salt and cinders (salt and airplanes do not mix at all), thus sand gets thrown down and the runways plowed/brushed.  Some airports also apply some sort of liquid agent, of which I am not sure what it consists of (Pittsburgh does this on occasion).

The NTSB will be investigating this accident as they do all air carrier incidents and accidents.  based on past accidents/incidents that I have read regarding aircraft sliding off of a runway, this will likely go down as pilot error as the probable cause but with several contributing factors such as the weather conditions and runway conditions.  As long as ATC passed along the information they are required to tell a pilot, the final authority lies with the pilot as to whether or not to continue the approach.
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Mark Spencer
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2009, 12:17:50 AM »

Some airports also apply some sort of liquid agent, of which I am not sure what it consists of (Pittsburgh does this on occasion).

From what I have read the liquid is potassium acetate.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
atcman23
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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2009, 07:33:30 AM »

maybe we can use some of that on the roads...?  tongue
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Mark Spencer
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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2009, 02:16:20 AM »

Nice clip. Weird how none of the flights affected are showing in flight aware. Comair 1452 and Cactus 828 don't show up around the time frame of the incident on Monday, which are the 2 affected flights I kept hearing. Doesn't sound like a fun night though. I wouldn't be surprised if another incident like this occurs with the current system hitting the northeast tonight and tomorrow.

Edit: Did this accident occur Sunday or Monday? I see the reroutings showing up on 1/4, which would be Sunday. Just curious.

As was mentioned, this was on Sunday. I was working in BUF for Comair at the time of the incident and got the call on my cell to come to Operations as we had a diversion coming in, we rallied our troops and worked out an action plan as to what we were going to do. Turns out that Comair SOCC called just as we were heading out the ramp and told us that the aircraft was already on the ground in ROC (the computer system was given the wrong info initially, and that's why FlightAware is incorrect).

Turns out that the aircraft went mechanical in ROC and ended up canceling, I believe there was some sort of anti-icing problem that obviously was not conducive to flying the short hop through an ice storm to SYR.
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otto_pilot
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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2009, 06:57:41 AM »

thanks for the answer and good clip
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tower: right delta ground point niner
pilot: Uh tower did you mean to say ground point 8 or do you want us to try them on point 9.
tower: Oh yea point 8 would work better, wouldnt it
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