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| | |-+  Eagle Flight 3906 skids off the runway ..
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Author Topic: Eagle Flight 3906 skids off the runway ..  (Read 10229 times)
Аэрофлот Jr.
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« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2009, 08:40:26 PM »

Nice Clip Wink

(: Thank you
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sincerely, Rae
atcman23
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« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2009, 10:35:14 PM »

is this accident just an issue of the airport not know the actual conditions of the runway? Also this is an accident that was weather related and the runway conditions were not properly assessed by the airport so are the pilots still at fault?(if that is the case.)  or could this be written off as not knowing how bad the actual conditions on the runway were and its just an accident were no single party is at fault.


Based upon past posts and listening to the audio clip, it sounds like an aircraft of a similar type (ERJ-145) landed prior to Eagle Flight 3906, who reported braking action to the tower (as the local controller likely asked, we don't know from the clip but controllers are required to solicit braking action advisories when those advisories are in effect).  We do know that the aircraft that landed prior to Eagle Flight was stuck on the taxiway because it was icy.  This does not say much about the condition of the runway as airport operations will tend to focus on the runway conditions before the taxiway conditions.  Braking actions are to be taken at a regular interval, which at Syracuse, it is likely that this would have been done had an aircraft not landed and reported braking action within that time frame (which I believe is 20 minutes).  With the sudden onset of freezing precipitation, this isn't always possible and it sounds like the weather deteriorated faster than ground crews could keep up with maintaining the runway.

The controller sounds like they reported the correct information to Eagle Flight 3906.  Pilots do rely heavily on braking action reports as it is the only thing they have to go by during adverse weather conditions.  However, this does not preclude the pilot from continuing to land if conditions reported are acceptable.  According to the FARs, the PIC has final authority over the flight and further, that if in their judgment a safe landing cannot be make, they can declare a missed approach or go around.  In this case, a missed approach would likely have been the call made.  Since this was freezing rain and not snow, judging runway conditions while flying is difficult.  Thus the reliance on the braking action report. 

Also keep in mind that ATC has no authority on runway closures.  Only Airport Management and/or Military authority can close a runway.  ATC coordinates with these parties when a closure may be necessary but the final call and command to close a runway comes from those parties, not ATC.  ATC can only enforce the closure (and only to an extent).  And yes, airport management/operations is responsible for maintaining the runways, which sounds like that they have been trying to do just that.  However, they do not throw down salt and cinders (salt and airplanes do not mix at all), thus sand gets thrown down and the runways plowed/brushed.  Some airports also apply some sort of liquid agent, of which I am not sure what it consists of (Pittsburgh does this on occasion).

The NTSB will be investigating this accident as they do all air carrier incidents and accidents.  based on past accidents/incidents that I have read regarding aircraft sliding off of a runway, this will likely go down as pilot error as the probable cause but with several contributing factors such as the weather conditions and runway conditions.  As long as ATC passed along the information they are required to tell a pilot, the final authority lies with the pilot as to whether or not to continue the approach.
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Mark Spencer
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2009, 12:17:50 AM »

Some airports also apply some sort of liquid agent, of which I am not sure what it consists of (Pittsburgh does this on occasion).

From what I have read the liquid is potassium acetate.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
atcman23
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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2009, 07:33:30 AM »

maybe we can use some of that on the roads...?  tongue
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Mark Spencer
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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2009, 02:16:20 AM »

Nice clip. Weird how none of the flights affected are showing in flight aware. Comair 1452 and Cactus 828 don't show up around the time frame of the incident on Monday, which are the 2 affected flights I kept hearing. Doesn't sound like a fun night though. I wouldn't be surprised if another incident like this occurs with the current system hitting the northeast tonight and tomorrow.

Edit: Did this accident occur Sunday or Monday? I see the reroutings showing up on 1/4, which would be Sunday. Just curious.

As was mentioned, this was on Sunday. I was working in BUF for Comair at the time of the incident and got the call on my cell to come to Operations as we had a diversion coming in, we rallied our troops and worked out an action plan as to what we were going to do. Turns out that Comair SOCC called just as we were heading out the ramp and told us that the aircraft was already on the ground in ROC (the computer system was given the wrong info initially, and that's why FlightAware is incorrect).

Turns out that the aircraft went mechanical in ROC and ended up canceling, I believe there was some sort of anti-icing problem that obviously was not conducive to flying the short hop through an ice storm to SYR.
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otto_pilot
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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2009, 06:57:41 AM »

thanks for the answer and good clip
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tower: right delta ground point niner
pilot: Uh tower did you mean to say ground point 8 or do you want us to try them on point 9.
tower: Oh yea point 8 would work better, wouldnt it
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