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Author Topic: Emergency landing at Buffalo  (Read 22297 times)
dan9125
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« on: January 21, 2007, 01:32:11 PM »

Caught this Canadair Regional Jet CRJ-200 (Acey700) inbound to Buffalo Friday night declaring an emergency. His flaps were stuck at zero degrees. Listen for the comment abouts his brakes at the end after landing safely. 

Dan
http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kbuf.m3u

* KBUF-Jan-20acey700.mp3 (2032.29 KB - downloaded 1305 times.)
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hyderpotter
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« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2007, 06:10:17 PM »

Is this live?
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(Me) hyderpotter at Runway 18 takeoff to the north.
(Tower) hyderpotter1983 clear for takeoff Runway 18, Northbound
aviator_06
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« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2007, 06:20:40 PM »

You did the same thing as me. Click on the link below http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kbuf.m3u in smaller print. I think everyone is downloading the live session instead of the clip. Made it confusing by putting the link to the live session below his name.
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dan9125
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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2007, 08:21:35 PM »

Sorry about that....the link to the actual emergency clip is the small one at the bottom.

  Dan
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88nitro305
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2007, 02:45:40 PM »

What did he say about the brakes I couldn't hear it. huh
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dan9125
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2007, 02:49:27 PM »

When asked if he needed any help he said no but his brakes were a little hot. Anyone know what speed you land at with zero flaps as compared to full flap landing?
 Dan
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dan9125
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2007, 06:08:27 PM »

I found a cool video and put it on "youtube" i bet this guy used some flap!

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Greg01
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2007, 07:57:05 PM »

Dan,

The flaps play a major role in helping to reduce landing speed in the airliners. Without the flaps, the landing speeds range from 200-possibly 230 knots indicated.

Now i'm mad because i was supposed to go to the tower on Friday, but had to cancel because my mom had to work!

Thanks,
Greg
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dan9125
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2007, 08:28:06 PM »

Greg,
 I flew into KBUF Saturday night around 9pm on a Delta MD-88 from Atlanta, I was wondering if you were in the tower. Our pilot told the tower he was on a "high downwind for 23" . Never heard that term before, thought it was interesting.

 Dan
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Greg01
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2007, 08:32:43 PM »

Dan, nope i wasn't there.

Coming from ATL, they bring you up the west side of the airport, because generally you'll be coming from JHW or DKK. Then they'll take you northwest of the airport and the aircraft will generally still be at 6000 or so descending to 2300. Usually, the pilots will call the field in sight west of the airport (close to Lake Erie/mouth of Niagara River). Basically, they'll enter a downwind at 4K-6K, hence the "high downwind 23."

Greg
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2007, 09:23:01 AM »

I flew into KBUF Saturday night around 9pm on a Delta MD-88 from Atlanta, I was wondering if you were in the tower. Our pilot told the tower he was on a "high downwind for 23" . Never heard that term before, thought it was interesting.

Hey, Dan, downwind is a leg of the "visual" traffic pattern that runs parallel to the runway heading but in the opposite direction.  See here for a discussion of the components traffic pattern:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0403.html

Your pilot was telling the tower where he was in relation to the runway after approach control cleared him for a visual approach (as opposed to an instrument approach, which is much more common in Buffalo Smiley ).  Note that a visual approach gives the pilot the freedom to approach the airport using the most efficient heading and altitude he or she chooses while remaining clear of clouds, terrain, and other traffic.   

A typical downwind leg is flown at between 1,000 and 1,500 feet above the runway's elevation.  In your case, your pilot was higher than that, perhaps around 2,000 feet above ground and descending.  Thus he was stating he was on a high downwind (approximately 2,000 feet or so and parallel to the runway, coming around to land) so that the tower controller would get an immediate mental picture of where the aircraft was.  I am pretty sure that Buffalo tower has radar in the cab, though, so the controller most likely already knew where the aircraft was. 

This verbiage is common when an IFR aircraft is cleared for a visual approach, but used just as often would be something like, "American Eagle XXX, visual 23." 
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Greg01
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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2007, 10:39:50 AM »

Peter has pretty much it the head on the nail.

BUF Tower indeed has a BRITE in the cab (actually they have 4, i believe).

Dan,

There is a VFR pattern at all airports. Generally all turns are to the left. Downwind is parallel to the runway. Base is perpendicular from the runway (before you turn final). "Left" and "Right" are the terms used to designate which way they will turn (i.e. left turn or right turn).

Sometimes we'll get the pilots who call, "Heeeey, tower, jetlink 2267, 5 mile right base for 23."

"High downwind" is almost always for arrivals from the south and west that are brough north of the airport (between IAG and BUF) but are kept high because of some obstacles. So, they'll be at 6000, call the field, cleared for the visual, and then start down. So by the time they call the tower, there about 4000MSL (a little higher than 2000AGL, Peter).

The main things is, very few pilots know which towers have BRITEs and which don't. So they just give there position initially so (if we didn't have a BRITE) we wouldn't have to ask or look.

To make things easier, what i'll do when on an instrument approach is something like, "Tower N40060 KLUMP for 23." I'll reference myself to the outer marker. The airliners will some times do that too.

Greg
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dan9125
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2007, 11:53:33 AM »

Thanks for the great info guys,
  Earlier this month when flying back from Atlanta we did a left downwind to 23, Saturdays flight was a right downwind. Just like you said greg, we flew over the lake,down the river and turned near the boulevard mall for our base leg. We actually started our decent as we crossed over Pittsburgh from 29000 feet. I could tell because I recognized 3 Rivers Staduim as it was a very clear night.
   Listening right now during a heavy lake effect snow storm....few planes in holding patterns!

 Dan
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dan9125
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2007, 01:03:51 PM »

Peter,
  Sounds like you had a nice ride into Buffalo this afternoon! Ice, wind gusts, moderate turbulance and blowing snow!  Welcome to Buffalo!

 Dan
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 01:38:37 PM by dan9125 » Logged

KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2007, 02:19:14 PM »

  Sounds like you had a nice ride into Buffalo this afternoon! Ice, wind gusts, moderate turbulance and blowing snow!  Welcome to Buffalo!

And the real bitch was the taxi from RWY 23 to the GA ramp!  Exiting 23 on taxiway Charlie my aircraft spun 90 degrees to the right, as the few intermediary taxiways I used and passed adjacent to RWY 23 were covered in perhaps 2 to 3 inches of snow.   
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2007, 02:29:34 PM »

There is a VFR pattern at all airports. Generally all turns are to the left. Downwind is parallel to the runway. Base is perpendicular from the runway (before you turn final). "Left" and "Right" are the terms used to designate which way they will turn (i.e. left turn or right turn).

While it is true that left turns are typically standard unless otherwise specified at uncontrolled airports, towered airports normally do not make the assumption that all aircraft on a visual or those approaching VFR will use a standard pattern (at least when speaking of US airports).  Rather, ATC will normally grant left or right pattern depending on where the arriving aircraft is approaching in relation to the landing runway or whether a specific pattern will facilitate the arrival/departure of the commercial airliners.

Quote
So by the time they call the tower, there about 4000MSL (a little higher than 2000AGL, Peter).

What do I know?  I only fly those little spam cans.  Smiley 
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
davolijj
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« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2007, 04:14:19 PM »

We actually started our decent as we crossed over Pittsburgh from 29000 feet. I could tell because I recognized 3 Rivers Staduim as it was a very clear night....

Actually they demolished 3-Rivers Stadium several years ago.  Heinz field is the new home of the Steelers.

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JD
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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2007, 05:34:45 PM »

BUF Tower indeed has a BRITE in the cab (actually they have 4, i believe)...

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't BUF have STARS??  The STARS version of a BRITE is called a TDM or Tower Display Monitor.  I know the old guys probably still refer to it as a BRITE but the two pieces of equipment are so different it'd be like refering to a CD player as an 8-track.

Quote from: KSYR-pjr
What do I know?  I only fly those little spam cans.

Peter, your knowledge of flying in the central-western NY area is unmatched by anyone I know, and even as a controller your posts always garner my attention.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 05:36:24 PM by davolijj » Logged

Regards
JD
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2007, 05:48:02 PM »

Peter, your knowledge of flying in the central-western NY area is unmatched by anyone I know, and even as a controller your posts always garner my attention.

Thank you, JD, for the compliment.  It is nice to see that all that $$$ I am throwing away on avgas results in something other than exhaust fumes blowing above the skies of central and western NY.  Smiley

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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
dan9125
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2007, 06:59:09 PM »

I guess I still think of it as Three Rivers Stadium because of its location. Thanks for hopping in your plane, snapping a pic and uploading it though, came out nice!

 Dan (Buffalo Bills fan)
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Greg01
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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2007, 07:36:16 PM »

Peter, yes you're correct. I just threw it in quickly because i had to go to the airport today, so it was little rushed. We just started the 100hr on the C172. I fly those spam cans too! Are you a controller?

Davoli, Yeah we have the STARS, but as you said, everybody still calls them BRITEs. And agreed about Peter. That taxi had to be fun! Just remember, if you start sliding, cob the throttle and use the rudder! That reminds me, i just went on a long IFR XC with my CFII to HPN and LKP SUnday. HPN was fun and LKP was a solid sheet of ice. The IAP was fun into LKP and was topped off with the view (that i only say at the MDA) and the very icy runway with a drop off at both ends!

Greg
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2007, 02:11:03 PM »

I fly those spam cans too! Are you a controller?

I wish.  I tried to get accepted into the program back in 1990 when I was 26, but for whatever reason scoring a 90 on the civil entrance exam was not good enough to even receive approval to move to the next step.   That was also the year I interviewed for an F-16 slot at my city's own Air National Guard unit.  Due to my blundering, I blew that interview.  My name was not meant to be on the government payroll apparently. Smiley 

Since then I became a software consultant and now run my own consulting company.  There are days I still wish I could be in front of a scope or in the tower, though.  Go figure...
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2007, 02:24:53 PM »

The STARS version of a BRITE is called a TDM or Tower Display Monitor[/quote]

JD, your such an Enroute guy now that your gettin a little rusty on terminal stuff. Im just messin with you. But it's TDW (Workstation), remember?
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Greg01
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« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2007, 02:51:20 PM »

Ok, i didn't know that as i'm still fairly new here.

Well, BUF is different because we have three (i think i got the right number now) BRITEs...i mean TDWs and an actual radar display (actual STARS scope) that hangs from the ceiling.

Greg
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davolijj
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« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2007, 08:29:15 PM »

JD, your such an Enroute guy now that your gettin a little rusty on terminal stuff. Im just messin with you. But it's TDW (Workstation), remember?


I see how it is Ed....I've been outcast to Z-land already huh?  And in less than a year. cry

The whole setup is called a TDW, and it includes one or more keyboard/trackballs, a Tower Audio Alarm Unit (TAAU), a Display Control Panel (DCP), a TDM, and an optional Secondary Display Monitor (SDM).  In the context of this discussion the TDM is relative to a BRITE.  If Greg had referred to a CONRack I would have referenced the TDW.
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Regards
JD
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