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Author Topic: American Airlines 1236 loses right engine after take off at KSNA  (Read 15628 times)
joeyb747
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2009, 08:23:07 PM »

When you add the fact that LAX would have many more resources available, I'd bet the crew didn't have to labor to long on the decision to head straight for LAX.
I agree. I would also venture to say that departure briefing between the pilots discussed such a contingency.


If I'm correct on this, I think it's called a Departure Alternate. It is required on any filed flightplan. It's the same idea as a Arrival Alternate. If you have an issue on takeoff/climbout, and cannot return to the origin airport, you need somewhere else to go that can handle that particular aircraft. When I dispatched at Zantop many moons ago, we would use KDTW or KTOL as Departure Alternates for out flights (Lockheed L-188C Electras and Douglas DC-8-54s) departing KYIP. KLAX may have been that flights Departure Alternate. That only applies to takeoff/climbout phase of the flight. Once at cruise, and you have an issue, you just need to find the nearest suitable airfield based on point of time, as iflysky posted.

If I am incorrect on any of this, please correct me! It's been a while since i pushed flight plans across a desk!!  grin
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Jason
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2009, 08:27:13 PM »

If I'm correct on this, I think it's called a Departure Alternate. It is required on any filed flightplan. It's the same idea as a Arrival Alternate.

For 121 ops, it's only required if the weather conditions at the airport of takeoff are below landing minimums for the certificate holder's OpsSpecs for that airport.

Quote
§ 121.617  Alternate airport for departure.

(a) If the weather conditions at the airport of takeoff are below the landing minimums in the certificate holder's operations specifications for that airport, no person may dispatch or release an aircraft from that airport unless the dispatch or flight release specifies an alternate airport located within the following distances from the airport of takeoff:

(1) Aircraft having two engines. Not more than one hour from the departure airport at normal cruising speed in still air with one engine inoperative.

(2) Aircraft having three or more engines. Not more than two hours from the departure airport at normal cruising speed in still air with one engine inoperative.

(b) For the purpose of paragraph (a) of this section, the alternate airport weather conditions must meet the requirements of the certificate holder's operations specifications.

(c) No person may dispatch or release an aircraft from an airport unless he lists each required alternate airport in the dispatch or flight release.
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joeyb747
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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2009, 08:28:51 PM »

Thanks Jason...like I said it's been a while...

And Michigan Winters, that was like six months out of the year!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 08:32:03 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

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cessna157
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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2009, 08:33:53 PM »

Well, you're close.  You've got the concept anyway.

Legally, for a 121 flight, a departure alternate must be listed on the release (it is not on the filed flight plan) if, at the time of your departure, the weather is such that a return to landing is impossible due to weather being below minimums.  For example, lets say you are departing 18C at CVG with an RVR of 800-800-800.  The approaches into CVG are all down to 1800 or 2400 RVR (CAT-II minimums cannot be used in this case, I think).  Therefore you must have a departure alternate listed.  The alternate must be within 1 hour flight time with 1 engine inoperative.

The return to landing is briefed in every departure.  Weather/field conditions/local concerns are brought into this decision.  It also depends on the type of emergency.  In a quick return (smoke/fire in the cabin, aircraft uncontrollable) it will usually just be a lap traffic pattern.  In a standard emergency (engine failure) there is a lot of time needed for checklist preparations.

Let me use an example that we frequently briefed:
Departing out of LGA, our departure brief would always include a return to JFK, never to LGA, due to the terrain around LGA (water) and short runways, compared to the longer runways, better more options for passengers, and our maintenance base there.
Another example (to use the checklist time issue):
Departing out of DAY or LEX, the brief would include a quick return to DAY, or else a diversion to CVG, since that is where we are based, we know the land, better maintenance, better passenger handling options, and it is only a 15 minute flight
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Jason
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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2009, 08:37:25 PM »

Thanks Jason...like I said it's been a while...

And Michigan Winters, that was like six months out of the year!

No worries.  It's also good to note that under 135, if the departure airport is at/above takeoff mins, but below landing mins, you have to have an alternate within 1 hour of flying time at normal cruise in still air from the departure airport (§ 135.217) which is what I normally have to deal with at work.
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joeyb747
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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2009, 08:39:56 PM »

The grey cloud in my head is starting to clear! Thanks for cleaning up my mess Jason and cessna157!  grin

It's all coming back to me now...it's been about ten yrs since I was that familiar with opps regs! Thanks again.
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iskyfly
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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2009, 09:02:22 AM »


Another example (to use the checklist time issue):
Departing out of DAY or LEX, the brief would include a quick return to DAY, or else a diversion to CVG, since that is where we are based, we know the land, better maintenance, better passenger handling options, and it is only a 15 minute flight
Another example- departing DCA, divert to IAD. You dont want to be fooling around near the White House no fly airspace.
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joeyb747
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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2009, 09:40:45 AM »

I do love the river approach into KDCA RNWY 18. Great views!
(Not related to our topic, but I just thought I'd share that! grin)
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cessna157
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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2009, 11:49:30 AM »

I do love the river approach into KDCA RNWY 18.

Ahem <cough><cough> 19
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joeyb747
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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2009, 11:57:46 AM »

My mistake...forgot they changed it... wink
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