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Author Topic: Great Save at SDL  (Read 8503 times)
ARRZZ
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« on: February 09, 2014, 10:19:56 PM »

Randomly listening to SDL airport...  Hawker was cleared to land on Runway 21 and inside a half mile.... controller notices a Skyhawk on the runway that should not be there....  Controller Did a Professional Job. She read Back hold short instructions.... huh

14:00 min in it begins.... grin

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ksdl/KSDL-Feb-09-2014-1830Z.mp3
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 01:23:01 AM by ARRZZ » Logged
flyflyfly
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2014, 03:13:30 AM »

Skyhawk: "Tower, ...ready 21..."
Tower: "Skyhawk ... hold short runway 21"
Skyhawk: "Hold short 21"

But then she immediately taxied on to the runway. Somehow she must have interpreted the instruction as "I'm cleared to hold short on runway 21".

Interestingly, they both didn't fully comply with official phraseology. It's "hold short of runway 21". Of course, the instruction was still obvious. But for an inexperienced pilot having a bad day, the little extra "of" may have helped.


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falstro
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2014, 04:42:56 AM »

Attached audio for posterity. I trimmed it to the relevant part only, but kept the silence so you get a feel for the time frame.
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swa4678
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2014, 11:50:54 AM »

Interestingly, they both didn't fully comply with official phraseology. It's "hold short of runway 21".
If the controller wanted to pick nits with someone on that, there is this example in section 3-7-2 of the .65:

Quote
“Follow (traffic), cross Runway Two Seven-Right, hold short Runway Two-Seven Left.”
Note the lack of "of" with the hold short instruction.
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flyflyfly
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2014, 02:06:47 PM »

If the controller wanted to pick nits with someone on that, there is this example in section 3-7-2 of the .65:

Ha, right, good catch. But this looks like a typo to me. It's only in the example section demonstrating the "follow traffic" phraseology. 3.7.2 (a) defines the "hold short" phraseology - and it clearly requires an "of" there - including all other examples in the document.

If someone was really bored, ask the FAA to clarify or fix the document. wink
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swa4678
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2014, 02:41:31 PM »

Oh, I don't discount the possibility of it being a typo rather than an intentional omission. But, it's the "bible", so you don't question it until someone at the FAA agrees and revises it!  grin

As for the "of" itself... I'm not so sure that would have helped in this case, to be honest. It sounded like an inexperienced pilot who may or may not have been nervous/self-conscious and was focusing too much on trying to replay the right sequence of operations from memorized scenarios (e.g. "cleared for takeoff", "line up and wait", or "hold short") rather than applying ADM skills to react to the here-and-now.

Then again, there's the other end of the spectrum - complacency in "experienced" pilots (and controllers) - that also can cause fatal errors. Now, I don't know what the view from SDL cab looked like at the time, what the TWR controller's workload was like, etc. etc. etc. Having said that, it seems like the TWR controller also didn't immediately catch on to the error as he scanned the runway. Not only did he miss the runway incursion as it happened, but he even started informing the traffic #2 in the pattern of traffic "in position" who would depart prior to #1 on short final.

Honestly, I think Skyhawk 6EP may have saved the controller's butt in this case. When 6EP reported traffic in sight, it seemed to finally kick something loose in the controller's scan who then realized "Hey, wait a tick, that traffic in position departing prior to this guy on < 1 NM final... isn't departing. Mostly because he shouldn't even be in position."
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 02:44:06 PM by swa4678 » Logged
falstro
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 04:09:28 AM »

As for the "of" itself... I'm not so sure that would have helped in this case, to be honest. It sounded like an inexperienced pilot who may or may not have been nervous/self-conscious and was focusing too much on trying to replay the right sequence of operations from memorized scenarios (e.g. "cleared for takeoff", "line up and wait", or "hold short") rather than applying ADM skills to react to the here-and-now.

Well, radio phraseology is designed to be clear even if the transmission is garbled. Can anyone with certainty say he didn't stick a short, almost silent, "of" in there? She somehow confused "hold short" with "line up and wait", or "position and hold" if she's old school (isn't that the very reason they changed it to "line up and wait"?). We do dumb things under stress, or in otherwise confusing situations, even things we've done a thousand times before. Gear up instead of flaps up anyone? Or for that matter, try writing something while talking with someone about something else, then go back and read what you wrote, a lot of us will find words from the conversation in the text that we don't remember writing (or it somehow seemed correct at the time). A friend of mine in college got an essay back with the word "refrigerator" in the middle of a sentence underlined in red along with a big question mark. She only then realized her roommate had asked for something while she was typing it up, and her answer was "it's in the refrigerator"... Our mind plays tricks on us sometimes. And it's very hard, if not impossible in some situations, to question our own mind, for that we need a separate mind.

Good job by the controller either way, I also like the smooth reaction by the pilot on the go around.
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RonR
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 09:44:13 AM »


Having said that, it seems like the TWR controller also didn't immediately catch on to the error as he scanned the runway.

I totally agree that the TWR controller didn't catch on the error right away.  In fact he corrected himself in mid-sentence.  Either way I think the situation was handled properly by both sides.
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ARRZZ
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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 01:14:35 PM »

The local controller did an exceptional job. It is very easy for non controllers that don't have a controller perspective to arm chair quarterback this. I only posted this because it was well done.
The local controller was watching an aircraft roll out and getting them to expedite off the runway for the inbound hawker. Thats where his eyes should be. He expected the skyhawk to hold short as she read that back. He caught her on the runway during his scan while sequencing.  We are talking a matter of seconds... not minutes. I for one was impressed with how professional the situation was handled. This is a pilot mistake.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 01:23:58 PM by ARRZZ » Logged
StuSEL
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2014, 12:59:13 AM »

This controller was extremely professional. The controller's voice didn't raise, he calmly reprimanded the pilot, and gave appropriate instructions to get rid of the conflict. That was really impressive.
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NEILCM
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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2014, 12:17:44 PM »

sounds like the Cessna was ready at the holding point for rwy 21 for the departure,
She wanted to depart and said she was ready.

I think she expected to be cleared on and therefore although the clearance / instruction to line up wasn't given she acted as it was i.e done what she was expecting rather than what she was told.
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svoynick
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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2014, 01:46:13 AM »

This controller was extremely professional. The controller's voice didn't raise, he calmly reprimanded the pilot, and gave appropriate instructions to get rid of the conflict. That was really impressive.
I agree - he effectively communicated the seriousness of the infraction to the pilot without making it personal or going for humiliation or anything.  Very smooth all around.

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MCMaritimus
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2014, 01:47:50 AM »

Good evening, folks. I'm the controller in the audio... my co-worker pointed this thread out to me.

While it's always nice to get a "job well done," these are the kinds of things that controllers do every hour of every day. It only seems more dramatic when a Hawker is practically flaring over a Skyhawk (and believe me, my heart rate went from 60 to "this must be what cocaine is like" in about a half second).

All of that being said, the Skyhawk in question did -NOT- save my ass, as someone dared to speculate. ARRZZ couldn't have said it better. It's extremely easy to play armchair quarterback. My eyes were on a squeeze play in the works (C208 on the runway with a Hawker on final), I received readback of hold-short instructions, and my eyes moved to the radar, and then my downwind to create a sequence. This is called a scan, and it's a technique that all controllers use. We don't eyeball one single aircraft to make sure they don't roll across the threshold. There'd be one big damned mess in the air if that were the case. When my scan turned from downwind to final, I saw the Skyhawk starting her takeoff roll. Hence, I switched gears mid-sentence and took care of the priority - an aluminum sandwich with student flavored mayo in the works.

As for the phraseology, call it what you want. I've known folks that can quote the .65 verse for verse, but can't separate their own ass-cheeks with two hands and a map. I heard a readback, and went on about my business. You'll even notice the humble "did I put you in position?" We all make mistakes. I tried not to lay into her too rough, but again, the adrenaline was pumping at that point.

Thanks all, and happy flying Smiley
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 01:50:43 AM by MCMaritimus » Logged
MCMaritimus
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2014, 01:59:56 AM »

Honestly, I think Skyhawk 6EP may have saved the controller's butt in this case. When 6EP reported traffic in sight, it seemed to finally kick something loose in the controller's scan who then realized "Hey, wait a tick, that traffic in position departing prior to this guy on < 1 NM final... isn't departing. Mostly because he shouldn't even be in position."

I see the misunderstanding here. Skyhawk 6EP reported the Hawker to follow in sight. I instructed 6EP that I would call his base, that traffic would be holding in position prior (the traffic in position would be Cessna 97N).

So, to recap (even though there's only three aircraft involved here),

Hawker 1TF crosses the threshold.
Cessna 97N is put into position.
Cessna 6EP turns base.
Hawker 1TF exits the runway.
Cessna 97N departs.
Cessna 6EP lands.

Hope that clarifies what was supposed to happen.
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hayek
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2014, 07:04:58 PM »

This is definitely pilot error; but when receiving a hold short instruction, i always appreciate it when the controller tells me why I'm holding short, as it improves my situational awareness.  (i.e. Skyhawk999, hold short Runway 12 -- traffic on 1 mi final).

Don't know if it would have helped here, however; the offending pilot didn't seem to notice when the controllers next call was to inform another aircraft of landing traffic on a 1mi final.  If I had heard that while lined up, I would have probably taxied onto the grass.
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