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Author Topic: If you're unfamiliar with an airport, it's not a good idea to fly there.  (Read 32695 times)
Kevin Meyers
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« on: June 14, 2012, 04:54:59 PM »

Gateway Tower KIWA owned N738XD this morning. 

* KIWA-Jun-14-2012-1730Z.mp3 (2112.71 KB - downloaded 7317 times.)
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iflyhi
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2012, 09:22:56 AM »

OUCH !!
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A_J_D_C
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2012, 03:37:17 PM »

yep..... OUCH!!
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drcart
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2012, 08:25:00 PM »

I'm not sure we know the whole story here.   
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PHXCONXrunner
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2012, 09:06:40 PM »

Sounds like she busted the IWA Class D and flew through the approach course.
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martyj19
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 09:34:56 PM »

I'm not sure we know the whole story here.

The story opens when she doesn't react to the controller's "Climb Immediately" which he is issuing because of a traffic conflict.  After that, she isn't very good at following instructions and distinguishing clearances meant for her from clearances not meant for her.  That has the controller at Witt's End.  Then she is taxiing all over the airport and doing the same to the ground controller.  I am not certain there needs to be more to the story than that.

I must say I have never heard anything quite like this where someone is declared a hazard in real time and commanded to land.

Karnak sees a 609 Ride in this lady's future.

The aircraft appears to be on this establishment's rental flight line.  http://www.arizonaaviation.com/index.php?PageId=11

One little tidbit that I first saw in Kershner's Instrument book, if a controller says "Immediately", they have a good reason and you best do it immediately.

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ogogog
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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2012, 08:05:03 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GDkVjsSSDbg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GT86iWiH2mI#t=35s







« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 08:09:16 PM by ogogog » Logged
Robert Larson
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2012, 10:36:04 PM »

Controllers can order pilots to land at a specific airport? Since when? I suppose I'd play along too as I'd be intimidated, but I'd have half a mind to say "unable" and then fly where the heck I wanted to. Only problem I suppose with that plan is that her intended destination was Class D too. They'd probably close the airport to her. smiley

I guess these overlapping Ds all under B airspace does make it pretty complicated. So I appreciate the controller's frustration too. Just not sure they have the authority to tell a VFR flight what to do like that. The messages I've gotten so far is all about how ATC is there for the pilot's benefit, not the other way around. This doesn't seem to fit that model.
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Jay
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2012, 01:36:45 AM »

Well, 91.123 obliges the pilot to comply with ATC clearances except for a number of reasons. None of them being 'they didn't wanna' or 'didn't feel like it'. Haven't listened to the tape yet but certainly that's well outside of the box for ATC but there isn't a procedure for everything so there'll be some sort of FAA action on both ends.
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Biff
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2012, 10:52:06 AM »

That, and ground control giving her hell for being unfamiliar with an airport she hadn't intended to land at. 
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WilliamJSS
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2012, 11:35:41 AM »

How do you not know you are blowing through airspace?Huh??
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keith
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 08:10:28 PM »

If it was just an airspace bust, I doubt they would've asked her to land. It must be a list of things that had them ruffled...the lack of compliance with "climb immediately" would be high on the list as another poster eluded to.

I pity the controllers. I also pity her instructor for letting someone with such poor airmanship go for a check ride.  I'm thankful she got down safely and didn't get anyone hurt.

The controllers' command of the frequency was impressive. They were unflappable.
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esv216
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2012, 02:28:46 PM »

She's a little nervous on the frequency... that doesn't make her a bad pilot... it's possible to get your PPL without ever talking to a controller, you know.
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ridejumpfly
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2012, 03:38:07 PM »

How do you not know you are blowing through airspace?Huh??

Sectional charts, gps, situational awareness, local area knowledge.  Flying around the phx bravo and with so many "d" towers in the area you really need to do a good preflight planning.  If she learned to fly out of FFZ then she should be familiar from all of her training flights.
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kumara6
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2012, 05:06:46 PM »

She's a little nervous on the frequency... that doesn't make her a bad pilot... it's possible to get your PPL without ever talking to a controller, you know.

Where did you get your PPL?
Quote
FAR 61.109(a).5[solo hour requirements].iii :
Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
It is not much time talking, but you're CFI will definitely have to prep you for this task and I think most if not all of them will sit with you to do it through your first time.
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martyj19
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2012, 05:18:49 PM »

I don't hear anything in the parts that we have to indicate an airspace bust.  She is after all speaking to Gateway Tower, and this aircraft is based at Falcon Field KFFZ which is only 10 miles away and at one point she asks to return to.  It is highly unlikely that she would be unfamiliar with KIWA.  She obviously scared the tower controller; and there may be parts of the interaction that we don't have, if only because of the way scanners work.  Anyone who is operating out of Class D underlying Class B should have a lot of radio experience, unless she is from out of town and even then, a rental checkout should pick up any deficiency.

To the person who faults the ground controller for being harsh, the ground controller did initially ask if she was familiar with the airport.
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ridejumpfly
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2012, 09:13:20 PM »

Some was missing from the clip supplied in the thread. She called inbound over the mall, a vfr reporting point just outside of the "D" and was not answered as it was stepped on. I assume she continued just inside of the delta because the controller asked who is over the mall she replies to him which is the first transmission on the above link.  I feel for her now because she did try to do everything right. Taking a radio call for someone else happens.  Over the mall if you aren't replied to immediately you have to be quick to turn west to remain south of FFZ class d and north of iwa class d. Apparently she didn't do that.  Making her land was extremely excessive and above his pay grade, IMO.   
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notaperfectpilot
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2012, 06:34:09 AM »

WOW! man, sounds like a lack of communication between both parties...more so on the controller. It sounds like the controller was a grouch and never wanted to talk to her in the first place much less let alone help her with a misunderstanding. It also seems that she might could have used some more radio training. That still doesn't set aside the snide comments from the tower controller. The ground controller seem a little bit more helpful in giving her taxi instructions aside from the first comment....just my two cents.
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ShadowGod
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2012, 10:54:25 PM »

Controller sounds like a jerk. Maybe a bit of misogyny/racism going on here?
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phil-s
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« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2012, 12:54:11 AM »

None of you think language is an issue here?
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SoCal Pilot
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« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2012, 12:38:00 AM »

Interesting...I've heard deviations that were a lot worse than this, if there actually was one. Never heard of anybody being forced to land.
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N500GS
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« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2012, 11:39:10 AM »

I'm not sure asking a pilot who was already in over her head to copy a phone number and call the tower on landiing was the best idea. Get her down safely somewhere then give her the bad news.
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flyingmedic
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« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2012, 04:31:32 PM »

She's a little nervous on the frequency... that doesn't make her a bad pilot... it's possible to get your PPL without ever talking to a controller, you know.

It is?

Since when? How do you required towered landings?




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N500GS
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« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2012, 07:34:30 AM »

FAR 61.109 5 iii requires 3 take off and landings to a full stop at an airport with an operating control tower
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bn2av8r
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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2012, 08:58:02 PM »

While I agree with what went down here, I will have to add that the controllers at IWA are a bit strange and can fly off the handle at the smallest thing.

Example:

Me - "Gateway ground, (call sign) with information Sierra ready to taxi for a northeast departure"
Ground - "(Callsign), taxi to runway 30L via B, N, do you have information Sierra?'
Me - "Yes Ma'am, we have Sierra"
Ground  (in a condescending tone)- "(Calllsign), you must use your call sign in every communication!!!!!"
Me - Roger, if you would have heard me say I had Sierra in the initial call up we wouldn't be talking about this now, would we?, (call sign)"
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