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Author Topic: JetBlue wants to play games  (Read 29896 times)
SkanknTodd
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« on: March 21, 2008, 12:51:02 PM »

Pretty self-explanatory...  Edited slightly for dead air, etc.  NY controllers are generally very helpful and friendly if you're nice and professional, but they bite hard if you disrespect them.

Todd
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cessna157
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2008, 01:06:12 PM »

What the controller says about assigned speeds of CAMRN and LENDY isn't necessarily correct.  I'm not doubting the controller, he knows his airspace better than I do.  But the clearances, per the SID, are CAMRN: "Expect to cross at 11,000' and 250kts" and LENDY: "Expect to cross at FL190 and 250kts".

When I fly these arrivals, I get the altitude crossing restriction 100% of the time.  But I only get the speed restriction about 75% of the time (I've had them ask me to speed up).  Also, as these are "expect" only, we are not required to comply with them.  They are just advisory of what to anticipate from the center controller.

If assigned a speed of 310kts, for example, while cruising at 10,000', and then given a clearance to descend to 8,000', that deletes the previous speed restriction as well.  But, on the other hand, if given an assigned speed of 250kts at  FL190 then given a clearance to descend to 8,000', the speed restriction stays valid.

I guess what I'm saying here is JBU very well could have been given a speed restriction of 250kts over CAMRN.  But the previous controller (this would have been given by ZDC) may not have given him the speed restriction.  We just don't know the facts.  Obviously the controller was expecting him to have the 250kt restriction.
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wrighty1976
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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2008, 04:46:03 PM »

It is the "I can give you a number to call..."

Kinda swings the Jetblue
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SkanknTodd
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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2008, 06:58:37 PM »

also note the voice coming from JetBlue changes towards the end.  sounds like the captain doesn't want the FO to get in any deeper than he is...
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robyul1
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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2008, 06:23:46 AM »

an easily-resolved problem, all the controller had to say is "Jet Blue 852 increase your speed to 230kts, i got traffic behind you comin' in a little faster."  Jet blue would've sped up, and that's all she wrote.  But no, had to get the new york sarcasm in there and make the situation tense for both sides.  Also, when the controller informed the pilots of the speed restrictions, that was fine, it could've been done just before transferring them to tower.  It's all about attitude. 
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KASWspotter
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2008, 07:07:20 PM »

Jetblue was friendly and asked "what do you need?" He got a sarcastic instruction in return. What if he had followed it? I probably wouldve asked the same question. They are on approach in busy airspace. No reason to be rude on the controllers part at all. Jetblue responded they were assigned that speed and he still gave em a lecture and the "I can give you a number to call" bit.
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davolijj
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2008, 09:33:01 PM »

I'd have to side with JBU on this one.

Here's this poor guy, oblivious to the fact that he's being overtaken by a faster aircraft.  When the controller queries him he makes it clear he'll do whatever the controller wants.  Then he immediately gets a "f--k you" vector with side of sarcasm.  He didn't help matters much with his "you wanna play games" comment but obviously there was a breakdown in communication somewhere.  Either he was given a speed and didn't follow it or my guess is he wasn't assigned one but the controller thought the arrival assigned him one.  And as Cessna157 pointed out, the speeds on the SID are "Expect" instructions, for planning purposes only.

It was obviously not that busy or the controller wouldn't have had time to get into it with the pilot.  I think he was just irritated because if it HAD been busy, some clown doing 220kts thirty out could be a deal waiting to happen.
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JD
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 12:48:39 AM »

Wow, this guy's got some serious attitude... Maybe he didn't get any the night before... If I were the Jeblue pilot, I would've considered calling the TRACON on landing... That was uncalled for...
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iskyfly
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2008, 09:20:11 AM »

Quote from: cessna157

If assigned a speed of 310kts, for example, while cruising at 10,000',
you shouldnt accept that assignment as it is a violation of FAR's.
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Kiel McGowan
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2008, 01:43:07 PM »

Quote from: cessna157

If assigned a speed of 310kts, for example, while cruising at 10,000',
you shouldnt accept that assignment as it is a violation of FAR's.


Below 10,000ft is a violation not at 10,000.
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Jason
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2008, 03:23:10 PM »

Quote from: cessna157

If assigned a speed of 310kts, for example, while cruising at 10,000',
you shouldnt accept that assignment as it is a violation of FAR's.


As Kiel pointed out, only below 10,000 feet is there a maximum speed restriction of 250 knots IAS (14 CFR ยง91.117).  If a controller issues a descent below 10,000 feet and appends "off-shore rules apply" you can also exceed 250 knots (speed restrictions of 250 knots do not apply to aircraft operating beyond 12 NM from the coastline within the U.S. Flight Information Region, in offshore Class E airspace below 10,000 feet MSL).  Such an instructions is common descending into an eastern Florida destination from an over-water route.
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camrnlendy
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2008, 10:55:27 PM »

This controller did the right thing.  Pilots flying into JFK ought to know the drill at JFK, and it is rare to find a pilot (especially at JBU) doing this kind of thing anymore.  We are working our tails off to get everyone on the ground as safely and efficiently as possible with unrealistic levels of traffic.

The airspace over NY is not designed for someone who wants to pull the speed back without alerting the controller first.  Think of it like this.  You are in the middle of 15 cars driving in the left lane of the LIE doing 55 MPH, each with just a few feet between them (minimum spacing).  The lead car slows to 35 MPH without hitting the brakes.  What happens.  Everyone behind that lead car gets put in an unsafe situation, while getting delayed, and in turn, creating a traffic jam.  JFK is a saturated airport, and if one plane slows when not told to do so, everyone slows, and the holding patterns fill up and last the rest of the day.

Again, the controller was 100% correct.  The pilot needed to understand right away that what he did does not work in New York, and if he wanted to slow, then he would be resequenced behind faster traffic that wanted to land.  Pilots are issued 250 KTS at CAMRN and LENDY, and I agree with this controller that slowing down from that restriction would be a possible deviation.

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Scrapper
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2008, 11:15:05 PM »

I COMPLETELY disagree with the last post... Unless you are given a restriction by the pilot NOT to slow down to below X speed until crossing the outer marker, or something to that effect, the pilot is free to slow down at will... If the controller does not want to backlog the guys behind this guy, then he needs to amend the clearance with something to that effect (ie. "JBU XXX cleared ILS approach runway XX, maintain 230 knots or better until the outer marker, traffic 6 nm in trail" etc.) otherwise, the pilot can assume that the traffic behind him is not a concern and start slowing down and retracting flaps, gear, etc. on his own schedule... with no speed restriction issued, the pilot can just assume that there's no one behind him, or that he's far enough ahead that there's no conflict with him slowing down... Air Traffic Controllers are supposed to be proactive, not assume that the pilot is going to do the right thing (because when given the choice, pilots will do what's best for their plane alone... it's up to the controller to think ahead and to think of the big picture... not the pilot...)
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Jason
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2008, 11:22:17 PM »

Again, the controller was 100% correct.  The pilot needed to understand right away that what he did does not work in New York, and if he wanted to slow, then he would be resequenced behind faster traffic that wanted to land.  Pilots are issued 250 KTS at CAMRN and LENDY, and I agree with this controller that slowing down from that restriction would be a possible deviation.

And in the off chance that the aircraft was never assigned the CAMRN or LENDY speed restriction?  There simply are not enough facts to base a solid answer on this one.  It is indeed a standard operating practice to issue the 250 knot restriction, but there are cases when that doesn't always happen due to a wide variety of variables.  Whether the pilot was right or wrong, it's an excellent opportunity to learn from the situation and to query ATC when given an instruction that deviates from an "EXPECT ____" notation on an assigned flight procedure.
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camrnlendy
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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2008, 12:58:16 AM »



Scrapper and Jason,

You both must be right.  I am sure your extensive knowledge about the intricacies and daily operational characteristics of the JFK sector at New York TRACON trump my irrelevant REAL-world experience in the aforementioned sector as a certified FAA Air Traffic Control Specialist. 

By the way 230 till the marker is not only illegal but painfully wrong.  There is no "marker" anymore, and you cannot assign a turbojet aircraft 230 knots till the FAF per FAA Order 7110.65 Chapter 5.




« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 01:08:38 AM by camrnlendy » Logged
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