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Author Topic: JetBlue wants to play games  (Read 30009 times)
IFRSteveD
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« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2008, 08:18:01 PM »

Man this site is great...just found it today while i was browsing clips from Youtube...ironically enough, the last clip that I saw was this very one.

My opinion, as a controller, is that Jetblue isn't the one playing games, but rather the controller.  As others have pointed, all that he had to say was to increase speed due to traffic coming behind him. Instead he goes on a long rant and starts playing "who's got the bigger package".   Totally unprofessional, but also not totally unprecedented.

When I was under checkout at my unit (Military ATC), my training officer got angry once, when I called a pilot sir, she told me that they should be calling me sir, hey what do I care.  The pilots job is to get somewhere, my job is to help them get there safely.  Being polite, in my experience, only helps matters, instead of bitching and complaining.

On the other hand, if my finger were to ever slip between transmissions...well I might have some explaining to do, that iswhen i vent all my frustrations...that way I can be as sweet as sugar when back on the radio. evil

Oh an due to our airspace and aerodrome, I deal with civvies quite a lot.  Probably more about equal between mil and civ traffic.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2008, 10:19:29 PM »

Hey, welcome!  Having a radar-side, actual experienced opinion to add to the discussions is always a good thing.

When I was under checkout at my unit (Military ATC), my training officer got angry once, when I called a pilot sir, she told me that they should be calling me sir, hey what do I care.  The pilots job is to get somewhere, my job is to help them get there safely.  Being polite, in my experience, only helps matters, instead of bitching and complaining.

Sounds like this officer had quite the inferiority complex.   Expressing mutual respect goes a very long way in the pilot/controller relationship, from what I have experienced and witnessed.  Both sides have their admirable qualities.
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Regards, Peter
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Hollis
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« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2008, 12:42:41 AM »

Reminds me of a situation in the military, when another tower controller (a buddy of mine) was being hassled by an aircraft commander (a 'bird' Colonel) who said something to the effect - 'this is MY aircraft and I give the orders', to which my buddy (a corporal) replied - 'Sir, this is MY airport and I give the orders around here!'
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CRolfe87
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« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2008, 03:31:55 PM »

Well, I'd have to side with the Pilot mostly on this one. From listening to this clip; this is my assumption of what happened.

JBU852 crossed CAMRN or LENDY at 250 then slowed to 220. Now, this is where I'd like to point out something the controller said: N90: "... and unless somebody slows you, until you get an approach clearance we wouldn't expect that you're gonna slow."

The pilot is, to my understanding, technically allowed to slow after the fix. But, my guess is that he never really sees pilots want to go slower. What I hear commonly at Orlando when they need a pilot to maintain 250 KTS is: MCO: "... maintain 250 knots until advised."

I think the controller got a little flustered when he saw this and the so called "100 knot" difference (assuming he wasn't being sarcastic). So rather than sort out a mess he felt the pilot caused he penalized the pilot. That's where JBU852 took offence to the delay vector. I don't agree with JBU852's comment, but I can simpathize. The clearance did sound like it had a second "agenda."

I kind of agree with the fact that controllers in N90 go outside the FAA orders when working, but they do a good job. They may be rude sometimes, but they can get stressed I bet and they see so many pilots doing just absurd things (you guys have heard the clips); they react a little harsh when they feel someone makes a mistake. I say feel because in this case I don't believe JBU852 made a mistake. Gotta get both points of view I guess.

P.S. To the best of my knowledge there is no maximum speed you can assign at the FAF to an aircraft. I've heard 210 before at C90 into Midway before. So, according to the 7110.65S, it's whatever the pilot will accept. Common speeds are between 160-180 for turbojets depending on facility SOP. I'm guessing final approach speeds are listed in the facility SOP.

This is just speculation based of my experience. I very well maybe be wrong. Give references if you have corrections. I'm genuinely interested.
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Chris (CR)
cessna157
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« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2008, 04:33:38 PM »

JBU852 crossed CAMRN or LENDY at 250 then slowed to 220. Now, this is where I'd like to point out something the controller said: N90: "... and unless somebody slows you, until you get an approach clearance we wouldn't expect that you're gonna slow."

The pilot is, to my understanding, technically allowed to slow after the fix. But, my guess is that he never really sees pilots want to go slower. What I hear commonly at Orlando when they need a pilot to maintain 250 KTS is: MCO: "... maintain 250 knots until advised."

Well that sure is an interesting interpretation of the rule.  But if you were flying along at 300 kts approaching LENDY, slow to and cross LENDY at 250, then accelerate back to 300, it would completely defeat the purpose of the crossing restriction.  You'd have numerous aircraft approaching at various speeds, cross the point at the same speed, then be all at different speeds again, losing their seperation.  The crossing restriction puts every aircraft on the same playing field.  Everyone flying the same route, at the same altitude, at the same speed.
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
CRolfe87
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« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2008, 05:07:43 PM »

I thought the same thing, but I could not find anything that said otherwise, that's why I'm asking for references or info on the topic. BTW, I completely agree with you cessna.

So, what I'm asking, is my interpretation wrong? Does "Cross fix at and maintain altitude at speed," mean cross the fix/point at and maintain that speed until instructed?

Responses?
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Chris (CR)
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« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2008, 06:24:23 PM »

So, what I'm asking, is my interpretation wrong? Does "Cross fix at and maintain altitude at speed," mean cross the fix/point at and maintain that speed until instructed?
Responses?

Yes, if you get a "Cross LENDY AT FL190 AND 250KTS" you cannot change your altitude or speed until given another clearance.

If you were to get a "cross at 280kts", or "maintain 280 kts" and then get a clearance to descend below 10,000 feet, that speed restriction is deleted, as in conflicts with the FARs.
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papa_whisky_zny
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« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2008, 11:24:47 PM »

I work the CAMRN inbounds at ZNY at the Dixie sector.  Unless you're flying during our midshift, generally midnight - 6:30 am, YOUR ARE ASSIGNED a speed restriction, either 250kts or 210kts.  There are no exceptions outside those times.  In this scenario you cannot tell if he came through Lendy or Camrn, nor can you tell what time either.  However, from the tone(or NY attitude some of you will say) of the controller's voice he was expecting the JBU to be at 250kts.  What the general public doesn't understand is that I receive traffic from ZDC at the lowest usable flight level.  It is quite common that pilots will beg for decent instructions as soon as possible because the distance from when they enter to my sector to Camrn instersection makes it "entertaining" on days when it's VFR and a million with calm winds to make these restrictions.  When there's a big tailwind we have ZDC assign 250kts by the time they enter my airspace so they descend and slow in time.  IF this scenario pertained to the Camrn sector then my bet is that the trailing aircraft was issued "Cross Camrn intersection at one one thousand at 250kts, JFK altimeter XX.XX .  What this means is that the aircraft has a pilot's discretion to descend at his own discretion AND do whatever speed he wants but must cross Camrn at that altitude and that speed and maintain them until otherwise told.  What's missing hear is that the trailing aircraft is coming in high and fast.  250kts at 17000 is faster than 250kts at 11000.  All too often I catch pilots assuming things they shouldn't.  Everyday I see some pilot that thinks they can deviate from there route of flight without letting the controller know.  Or slowing down from an assigned speed because of the rides.  Or taking there time when they're issued vectors for intrail restrictions.  Or crying for a deviation from weather which will, in effect, give them their shortcut after being denied a shortcut for whatever reason.  As a controller I'm counted on to keep planes apart, safely and expeditiously.  Nowadays, there's another factor I must consider.  Due to our imposed work rules we will lose out on any pay raise and possibly be fired for loss of separation.  The NY airspace is the most complex airspace IN THE WORLD.  To the person who posted that there's another area that even comes close, you'll need to enlighten me where that is.  For the size of our airspace + the volume we move + the number of airports in close proximity to each other, I take exception to your statement.  According to the FAA Admistrator's Fact Book we're 2nd in traffic volume, narrowly beat out by ZTL.  Combine that with our miniscule amount of airspace and you've got yourself some eventful stories at the day's end.  So IF this was JBU fault for not adhering to instructions, I would have done the same as the controller noted here.  I don't have the time to wait for JBU to increase his speed.  The trailing aircraft shouldn't have to be penalize with vectors to follow this either.  It's kind of ironic that pilot can acknowledge complicated instructions with "roger" or "ok" or an abbrviated version of what a controller says and then complain when a controller gets upset when a pilot is being lazy, which I supect is the case here.

And to all those people who think New York attitudes should not be tolerated, work a day where we work and see how long you'll be passive when a pilot doesn't do what he/she is suppose to do.  Couple that with our HORRIBLE management and make sure you take out a hefty life insurance policy for your spouse and kids.  Now, I'm not saying there aren't any morons that I work with.  I'm just saying I need to have that type A personality.  YOU need that personality as well.  I just got home from work a few hours ago.  Weather was all around us tonight.  My friend had a BWI arrival make a 120 degree right turn away from weather and refused to go through weather that 40 others went through.  He was heading straight for other traffic.  Of course the pilot has the final say on what he flies through.  But from a controller's viewpoint, how do we handle this situation?  You can't compare it to driving a car.  Cars can stop behind you if you NEED to stop.  And if you do stop, you pull over to the side and lets the others behind you pass you.  And this is exactly what I see in this scenario.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2008, 02:26:39 PM »

My friend had a BWI arrival make a 120 degree right turn away from weather and refused to go through weather that 40 others went through.  He was heading straight for other traffic.  Of course the pilot has the final say on what he flies through.  But from a controller's viewpoint, how do we handle this situation? 

Hard to accurately respond to this scenario since all of the actual details aren't really known, like was it really 40 aircraft that has passed through the weather previously?  If so, of the 40 aircraft that did, what was the time difference between the last one and the deviating aircraft?    Is it possible that the precipitation cell intensified during that period?  Some of these details are no doubt lost in the passing of this story from person to person.

For forum-based discussion purposes and based on the limited facts presented here I would tend to side with the pilot, though, since there is a very good reason why a pilot's decision to deviate from an ATC clearance for safety reasons is protected by regulation (in the US).  A pilot is the only person who can ultimately decide whether the the immediate safety of flight is in question.  

There is no doubt that this pilot knew that the act of deviating outside of ATC's clearance would cause chaos to the orderly arrival flow.  I would strongly suspect that this pilot had no other agenda than to protect the flight.  However, s/he felt strongly enough based on what his/her on-board radar was painting that his/her immediate action was required.  It is during these moments that skilled controllers certainly earn their pay and their gray hair, I will give you that, but weather changes quickly enough that there will always be a possibility of rhythmic order turning into momentary chaos.  

I was once flying through indicated moderate precipitation when the cell intensified to heavy rain just as I  passed through.  Had it done so a minute or two earlier I would have definitely deviated one side or the other but in this case I was already in it when it happened.   The point is that precipitation intensity levels do change rapidly and what might have appeared benign moments earlier could quickly morph into the ominous.   IMO a pilot's response to unfolding weather conditions should never be solely based on the successful actions of previous pilots and a pilot's decision should never be judged based on the actions of previous pilots.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
papa_whisky_zny
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« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2008, 08:29:15 PM »

A perfectly rational response to the information I gave in my last post.  In my guestimation, we had at least 40, if not more travel through this weather.  And we had several more behind him that went through.  DAL pilots are NOTORIOUS for complaining about the rides and weather deviations.  I'm not trying to insult DAL.  It's just a plain fact, yet they went through this weather with not a peep.  I worked that particular sector and was relieved by my friend when this happened.  My point is that if the JBU pilot came through the CAMRN sector at anytime outside the midshift, he was assigned a speed.  Even if there's training going on at the sector, and nowadays it's daily, a speed restriction is assigned, without question.  If we don't assign a speed the very first thing that happens is we get shut off, period.  And the once in a blue moon time that happens is when we're starting up in the morning and approach hasn't told us to use speed restrictions yet.  As far as a pilot knowing a deviation or a relaxed turn, or an accidental relief of a speed restriction being ignored... it happens everyday.  Literally.  I don't know if it's just a lack of training nowadays but pilots tend to not know basic instructions unless it can be plugged into a computer and have the aircraft do it for him.  I can't tell you how many times I've vectored an aircraft to join an airway and have the pilot come back to me and tell me they can't do that.  This is within 10 miles of them joining the airway that I vectored them off of!

I absolutely respect your post but from my experience pilots today tend to try to bend the rules as much as possible.  That's not to say certain controllers don't do the same.  I sometimes listen to a few frequencies on this site and cringe at how terrible there phraseology is.  I'm known at work at a phraseology nazi.  Trainees HATE training with me because they get away with there garbage with other people.  It's just a shame that both pilots and controllers today have lost there pride in there profession.
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Switch Monkey
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« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2008, 01:06:17 AM »

Is it just me or did the jb pilot say "its an assigned speed" just prior to the controller saying that he could give him a number to call?
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cessna157
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« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2008, 07:54:02 AM »

The controller went on and on about "what would you do?" and I think JBU's answer was "Assign a speed sir."  Either he forgot he had an assigned speed or he never was assigned one is up for debate, as we really don't have all the facts.
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« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2008, 03:36:00 PM »

The controller on this feed retired--today was his last day. An era has ended. He was one of the good ones.

I have no problem with pilots who want to slow I just wish they'd tell me first because a majority of pilots will maintain 250 knots until advised (or they'll ask to slow within 15 or 20 miles of the airport if I want a new speed) and you have one or two here and there that pull the plug and go to 210 or less and pretty drastically (what I mean by that is I look at the tag it's 250 and I complete one scan of the rest of my aircraft and come back to him and it's 200).

Sometimes you have no choice but to resequence. What I like to do is just turn him out 20 degrees so he's still kind of in the flow and he can watch the 2 or 3 planes behind him go in front of him. Then when he gets up to the approach there's a hole for him and everyone else there is matching his speed by then.



« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 04:21:16 PM by drFinal » Logged

Air traffic controllers tell pilots where to go.
glencar
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« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2008, 04:11:35 PM »

I'm not sure if it was in effect when this event happened but there is now a NOTAM that pilots can just slow on their own in N90 airspace by more than 20 knots. I've worked elsewhere in the country & it had more aircraft but N90 is certainly much more complex & there's less room for fixing messes. BTW I echo the comments above. The controller in the tape just retired. Now y'all have to find someone new to critique!
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