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Author Topic: JFK GND getting upset  (Read 31019 times)
puka54
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« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2006, 02:20:14 PM »

I can hear anything too  sad
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Adrian8
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« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2006, 03:35:33 PM »

If you're interested in these issues of procedures and phraseology, I highly recommend Don Brown's columns on AvWeb.  http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/

As a matter of fact, I read Don's column every month.  Great stuff in there.  smiley

And by the way, there's no offical document saying "what taxiway do you enter the ramp".  I do agree with you that this is not standard, but my point is this: are the procedures at Kennedy radically going to change any time soon? No one seems to have a problem with it except for the occasional foreign pilot.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 03:39:11 PM by Adrian8 » Logged

RayZor
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« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2006, 05:56:18 PM »

at least he didn't go STOP YOUR PLANE!!!  grin

Hehe, yeah but in that incident, I thought the controller was completely justified in saying so.  The pilot could not understand what to do or say at all and was endangering other aircraft. 
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Miyridian
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« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2006, 06:41:55 AM »


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Seems pretty standard since they ask pretty much every pilot which taxiway they're going in.

I have reviewed all AFD information on JFK and significant supplemental information not in the AFD, and I have never seen any discussion of this procedure.  Indeed, it is ground's responsibility to select appropriate taxiways.  If someone can point to an official FAA publication to the contrary, please do.


It is the pilot's responsibility to tell ATC where he is parking after landing - ATC then tells him how to get there. However, this need not be a specific gate - it could be a ramp or apron. ATC would tell the pilot how to get to that apron, and then the plane would be directed to the appropriate spot on that ramp or apron by the ramp controllers or marshallers. That's how it works at JFK - the airplane tells ATC where it needs to go (to enter the ramp on a certain taxiway), and ATC directs the plane until it enters the ramp, at which point it is under the control of the ramp controllers (who are also responsible for making sure that there will be space for the plane once it actually gets onto the ramp - you'll occasionally hear planes call up JFK ground to say that they have to hold for an airplane or two to leave the ramp before they can taxi in).

Some sort of mention of this should be included on the charts for JFK, in my opinion. It may be standard procedure, and those who fly to the airport regularly know how things work, but it would be very minimal effort to add a few words to the chart, and it would clear up 99% of these confusions.
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digger
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« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2006, 02:19:36 PM »

To address the question of phraseology, being proper or not--

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NOTE-
Controllers may, after first using the prescribed phraseology for a specific procedure, rephrase the message to ensure the content is understood. Good judgment shall be exercised when using nonstandard phraseology.

Source: http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/ATC/Chp1/atc0102.html That's in "Chapter one, Section 2", "1-2-5 Annotations", part "g" of Order 7110.65R http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/ATC/INDEX.HTM. (That's the rulbook for controllers. Very interesting reading if you like this site.)

That having been said, I didn't think the controller was making himself clear either in repeating, "what taxiway do you enter the ramp?" After being misunderstood the first time, he could've changed it to "what taxiway do you usually use to enter the ramp?", and I think he'd have gotten his meaning through, (without further tying up his own frequency.) In failing to do that, I'd question how good his judgement was.
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frantzy
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« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2006, 09:53:56 PM »

I agree and based only on the clips I've heard on this site (plus experience as a commercial pilot), I think some JFK controllers have some serious self-pity.   Other airports with more a/c movements and a mix of foreign pilots seem to handle the challenges without blowing their lids (indeed they're usually quite friendly).

Not to mention that when a foreign pilot is having a communication issue, having some obnoxious New Yorker yelling at him will only make the issue worse.  Slightly rephrasing, speaking slowly, and staying calm would be more effective IMHO. 
Of course, that is hard to do if you feel pilots are out to make your life miserable.

Something tells me Boston John would have a better way to cope  afro
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RayZor
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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2006, 09:59:19 PM »

Something tells me Boston John would have a better way to cope  afro

New ATC motto: WWBJD?
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frantzy
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« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2006, 11:39:14 PM »

Something tells me Boston John would have a better way to cope  afro

New ATC motto: WWBJD?

Exactly!  grin
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mpflood
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Student pilot,Fire Lieutenat


WWW
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2006, 10:11:31 AM »

wwbjd        I love it!
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juice19
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« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2006, 12:31:18 AM »

I love the Monday morning quarterbacking on this website.  Its so easy to have all the answers when your able to sit home and listen to it on your computer, especially when 90% of the other traffic has been edited out.  I'm not agreeing with yelling, but I am sure it can very frustrating at times. The answer to the question "what taxiway do you need to enter the ramp?" should not be "we park at gate B24."  Parking procedures are not  the same at every airport.  JFK has 9 individual terminals unlike other airports that may have one big terminal.  (then the gate number would be helpful).  Asking a pilot what taxiway he "usually" enters the ramp would make no sense since their gate could change day by day and that pilot may not have been at JFK for years.  So remember, things, I am sure, are not always as cut and dry as they may seem when listening to an edited mpeg on this website.
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digger
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« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2006, 07:02:41 AM »

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JFK has 9 individual terminals unlike other airports that may have one big terminal.  (then the gate number would be helpful).  Asking a pilot what taxiway he "usually" enters the ramp would make no sense since their gate could change day by day and that pilot may not have been at JFK for years. 


If that's the case, what's the point of asking the pilot anything at all about how he's going to enter the ramp ? He's mentally prepared to enter the ramp in accordance with instructions from the controller--not to tell the controller what he's going to do.

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I love the Monday morning quarterbacking on this website.  Its so easy to have all the answers when your able to sit home and listen to it on your computer, ....... I'm not agreeing with yelling, but I am sure it can very frustrating at times. 


I once worked for a guy who had the same sort of problem. If he explained once what he wanted you to do, but hadn't quite communicated it properly, his only alternate strategy was to explain it again, in the same words, but LOUDER. I'm sure he got frustrated too. He didn't have the mental agility or communication skills to do otherwise. Mental agility and communication skills are necessary ingredients in good ATC. Patience can be useful too. Maybe it is monday morning quarterbacking, but I didn't hear evidence of an abundance of any of those qualities in this clip.

The guy might be a great controller, but the clip in question was not one of his highlights. (And to be honest, that's why it's interesting enough to be posted here, isn't it?)

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juice19
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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2006, 01:09:33 AM »

Asking the pilot what taxiway entrance he needs for the ramp is an extremely valid question at JFK since all the terminals have more than one entrance.  The controller needs to know how to get the arrival to his entrance point so he can use correct taxiways to  get him there.  Also there maybe other aircraft on ground that may be traffic for the arrival, so he may have to stop someone or move someone out of the way.  Also there may be closed taxiways impacting the taxi route.  So asking "what entrance do you use for the ramp" is a pretty straight foward question.  Now, I agree asking it louder the second time may not work, but it is not a very confusing question.   Questioning the man's mental agility and communications skills because some foreign pilot couldn't understand a simple question is rather extreme.  Nobodys perfect and most controllers don't claim to be, but I hope you can see that simple questions that don't get answered can be very frustrating.  Patience is a virtue and I agree that that is the best route, however I am sure you know that atc is a fast moving animal and patience can be lost very quickly.
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penguin44
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« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2006, 02:05:10 AM »

Actually flying into Pearson, as a private flight or flying commercially in a p-12c, I am usually asked where I am going or I will be asked what taxiway I would like if it is not too busy. I usually take hotel3 or H3 since it's a high speed taxiway. But usually i just tell them I am going to GA parking and they say take taxiway blah blah via blah blah. I have never been asked what taxiway do I usually use. The answer to that is none, since I have never taken the same route twice on the ground. It's always around something due to traffic on the ground or what have you. Yesterday or should I say Saturday I was asked to exit right onto Rwy 15 and then exit to the first available taxiway. I have never done that so I was a little out of it. It was due to the fact there was another plane coming and another waiting for takeoff so they booted me as fast as possible. BTW it was fun, winds were 230-239 magnetic at 20kts-gusting 30kts. MMM. Fun. At least it was down the runway, there was a small 182 and he was trying to taxi out and finally said forget it and went back and parked.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 02:27:19 PM by penguin44 » Logged
digger
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« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2006, 01:06:24 PM »

Quote
.... So asking "what entrance do you use for the ramp" is a pretty straight foward question.  Now, I agree asking it louder the second time may not work, but it is not a very confusing question.   Questioning the man's mental agility and communications skills because some foreign pilot couldn't understand a simple question is rather extreme.


Perhaps it is common practice at JFK to ask the pilots that question. Just to be sure I'm clear on the issues here, i just went back and listened to the clip again. What the controller said, repeatedly, which was obviously not understood by the pilot was, "What taxiway do you enter the ramp?" That kind of syntax would get a failing grade in a third grade elementary school class.

The controller had the responsibility to communicate his question. Clearly, by his reply, the pilot did not understand the question being asked. Which party was in a position to remedy that failure to clearly communicate?

My personal opinion only--the controller was more interested in having his question answered in the fashion he wanted it to be answered in, than he was in moving the traffic.
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flyer_d
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« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2006, 02:06:37 PM »

The answer to the question "what taxiway do you need to enter the ramp?" should not be "we park at gate B24."

Go listen to the clip again -- you have the exchagne wrong.  The controller asked "where do you park" and the pilot responded with the answer to that question ("bravo 28").

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Parking procedures are not  the same at every airport.  JFK has 9 individual terminals unlike other airports that may have one big terminal.  (then the gate number would be helpful).

See my post above.  B28 tells the controller EXACTLY where the pilot is going.

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Asking a pilot what taxiway he "usually" enters the ramp would make no sense since their gate could change day by day and that pilot may not have been at JFK for years.

Right.

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Asking the pilot what taxiway entrance he needs for the ramp is an extremely valid question at JFK since all the terminals have more than one entrance.  The controller needs to know how to get the arrival to his entrance point so he can use correct taxiways to  get him there.  Also there maybe other aircraft on ground that may be traffic for the arrival, so he may have to stop someone or move someone out of the way.  Also there may be closed taxiways impacting the taxi route.  So asking "what entrance do you use for the ramp" is a pretty straight foward question.  Now, I agree asking it louder the second time may not work, but it is not a very confusing question.

In fact it is a confusing question.  Everywhere else, the pilot tells the ground controller a destination, and the controller decides how to get the plane there -- because all of those factors you cite will be entirely unknown to the pilot.  Here's what I said on this point in an above post:

I have reviewed all AFD information on JFK and significant supplemental information not in the AFD, and I have never seen any discussion of this procedure.  Indeed, it is ground's responsibility to select appropriate taxiways.  If someone can point to an official FAA publication to the contrary, please do.  [snip]  If it is, in fact, an essential procedure, then the tower/FAA should establish and publish procedures.  For example, I am aware that landing pilots are expected to specify their hangar.  I have seen that published in JFK guidance.  Even if that applies to commercial ops (not sure; didn't have cause to check), that would have been fulfilled by the pilot's first response (gate number).

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Questioning the man's mental agility and communications skills because some foreign pilot couldn't understand a simple question is rather extreme.

It has nothing to do with being foreign.  The controller was unclear.

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