Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 21, 2014, 07:13:30 AM
Home Help Login Register      
News: NEW Follow LiveATC updates on Twitter and Facebook


+  LiveATC Discussion Forums
|-+  Air Traffic Monitoring
| |-+  Aviation Audio Clips (Moderators: dave, RonR)
| | |-+  JFK GND getting upset
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 Go Down Print
Author Topic: JFK GND getting upset  (Read 36525 times)
juice19
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2006, 07:24:49 PM »

ok, heres how it works.  Each terminal has many gates and more than one  taxiway entrances to the ramp.  Each terminal has a ramp control.  The ramp control tells the pilot what gate they are going to and what taxiway entrance they would like the pilot to enter the ramp area through.  So when the ground controller asks the very valid question "what taxiway do you enter the ramp on?" the pilot should know or at least find out through the ramp control.  JKF ground does not control the ramp areas, the ramp control does.  So JFK Ground is trying to find out where the pilot needs to enter the ramp and then he will instruct the pilot on how to get to the entrance point.  Also, air traffic control phraseology is not perfect english.  The question was clear and valid.  Once the entrance to the ramp is know the ground controller will provide the taxi route. 
Logged
digger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 281


« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2006, 09:01:32 PM »

Obviously, you're intimately familiar with how JFK operates. I'm not.

Just so we're on the same page, the pilot is expected to find out from ramp control, in advance of his contact with ground, which entrance he's supposed to use to enter the ramp. In other words, the responsibility is on the pilot to coordinate between his respective ramp control and ground control, and be prepared to communicate the required information to the ground controller. Is that correct?

Quote
Also, air traffic control phraseology is not perfect english.  The question was clear and valid. 


Whatever the answer to the question I asked above, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Valid question? If my interpretation above is correct, then I'll concede that it is. Clear? Obviously it wasn't. The controller wasn't getting his meaning through to the pilot.

As I pointed out above, the order states:
Quote
"NOTE-
Controllers may, after first using the prescribed phraseology for a specific procedure, rephrase the message to ensure the content is understood. Good judgment shall be exercised when using nonstandard phraseology. "

I doubt that the pilot was being deliberately obtuse. Maybe he actually was a dimwit. Nevertheless, the controller may have had better success if he'd phrased the question just a bit differently each time, until that little light bulb came on in the pilot's mind.    shocked  That's where I see that controller has room for improvement.
Logged
flyer_d
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 55


« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2006, 11:11:51 AM »

ok, heres how it works.  Each terminal has many gates and more than one  taxiway entrances to the ramp.  Each terminal has a ramp control.  The ramp control tells the pilot what gate they are going to and what taxiway entrance they would like the pilot to enter the ramp area through.  So when the ground controller asks the very valid question "what taxiway do you enter the ramp on?" the pilot should know or at least find out through the ramp control.

Please provide a link or direction to official published guidance to support this statement.
Logged
juice19
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2006, 04:41:30 PM »

I am not sure where you find a publication on how pilots go about finding out the gate imformation and ramp entrances.  That I would assume that is between the ramp control of each terminal and the airlines they work with.  JFK has 9 terminals and each one has their own ramp controls and rules they work with.  But usually the pilot would know prior to landing what gate they are going to and hopefully what entrance to use to get to that gate.  And once on the ground, if he doesn't know, they would have to call the ramp control to find out. 

At JFK, language barrier is a huge issue.  Many foreign pilots from all over the world speaking many languages all trying to converse in English.  So, there can be confusion and frustration all the time.  I agree that rephrasing the question would help but and getting upset does not help at all.  But it does happen  in the crazy world of ATC, especially when dealing with many foreign pilots.  ATC's need answers to questions quickly to make there decisions in a timely manner.  You can't use kid gloves with one pilot for too long because you will fall behind on the rest of your traffic extremely quickly. Remember, its only one controller dealing with 40- 50 pilots at times and time management is crucial.
Logged
sky_diving_lover
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2006, 04:47:56 PM »

Well I think it is so clear the pilot did not understood what was the controller saying in that case as a good controller to try explaining politely what do u mean for the pilot, the pilot has been flying for allots of hrs and was talking to allots of controllers and he might be stressed or upset but in that case he cannot leave the plain for another pilot but if u as a controller found ur self stressed u can ask your college to take over not start screaming over the mic,
Logged
flyer_d
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 55


« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2006, 05:37:02 PM »

I am not sure where you find a publication on how pilots go about finding out the gate imformation and ramp entrances.  That I would assume that is between the ramp control of each terminal and the airlines they work with.  JFK has 9 terminals and each one has their own ramp controls and rules they work with.  But usually the pilot would know prior to landing what gate they are going to and hopefully what entrance to use to get to that gate.  And once on the ground, if he doesn't know, they would have to call the ramp control to find out. 

As I thought, which pretty much settles this discussion.  You cannot say "heres [sic] how it works" unless you can provide a reference.  The FARs, the AIM, Order 7110.65, NOTAMs, etc., provide the operational rules for aviation.  There is no room for "I would assume" and "hopefully."  I don't mean to be picky or sound harsh, but if it's not in the rules, it doesn't exist.

(Your ramp point may be accurate but it misses the point -- those areas exist outside of the ATC system.  This was an exchange with ground control, not ramp control.)

Quote
At JFK, language barrier is a huge issue.  Many foreign pilots from all over the world speaking many languages all trying to converse in English.  So, there can be confusion and frustration all the time.  I agree that rephrasing the question would help but and getting upset does not help at all.  But it does happen  in the crazy world of ATC, especially when dealing with many foreign pilots.  ATC's need answers to questions quickly to make there decisions in a timely manner.  You can't use kid gloves with one pilot for too long because you will fall behind on the rest of your traffic extremely quickly. Remember, its only one controller dealing with 40- 50 pilots at times and time management is crucial.

All the more reason to use standard phraseology.  Remember, it is the published standard phrases that all those foreign pilots will have studied, and that they will be expecting to hear on the radio.  (See the AIM and Order 7110.65 for tons of examples.)
Logged
juice19
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5


« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2006, 10:35:10 AM »

Where aircraft park at their terminal is between the airlines and the ramp control who operate the terminal.  I am sure each company has a publication on ramp procedures but you would have to contact each airline to find out what their ramp procedures are.  Its not going to be an FAR, or be in the AIM or the 7110.65.  It is a company procedure, not an ATC procedure, and it would be a local procedure for each individual airport.  Just because is not published in the AIM, 7110.65 or FAR doesn't mean local procedures don't exist. 

As far as the exchange, the ground controller is asking the pilot where he is parking for the ramp.  They pilot gets that from his company or ramp control and then relays that to the controller.  As you said, that part of imformation gathering exists outside the ATC system (thats between pilot and company) The controller is asking where he needs to enter the ramp so he can get him to the entrance point.

As for the point, "if is not in the rules it doesn't exist"  you have to learn some more about ATC.  It is not a black and white world.
Logged
flyer_d
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 55


« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2006, 01:18:43 PM »

Where aircraft park at their terminal is between the airlines and the ramp control who operate the terminal.  I am sure each company has a publication on ramp procedures but you would have to contact each airline to find out what their ramp procedures are.  Its not going to be an FAR, or be in the AIM or the 7110.65.  It is a company procedure, not an ATC procedure, and it would be a local procedure for each individual airport.  Just because is not published in the AIM, 7110.65 or FAR doesn't mean local procedures don't exist. 

As far as the exchange, the ground controller is asking the pilot where he is parking for the ramp.  They pilot gets that from his company or ramp control and then relays that to the controller.  As you said, that part of imformation gathering exists outside the ATC system (thats between pilot and company) The controller is asking where he needs to enter the ramp so he can get him to the entrance point.

As for the point, "if is not in the rules it doesn't exist"  you have to learn some more about ATC.  It is not a black and white world.

Hi Juice.  Thanks for your post.  I don't want to be argumentative, and I considered not responding given your ridiculous last comment, so I'll cut this short.

Ramp controls operate under letters of agreement between carriers and the FAA.  These letters then become extensions of the FARs, AIM, Orders, etc.  They most certainly are "ATC procedures," and they are in "black and white."

If there is a letter of agreement for this airline that requires the pilot to specify his entrance taxiway (which there very well may be, in fact, I expect there is, and that's why I keep asking for a reference), then the pilot should have been prepared to specify the taxiway.

But that in no way justifies the controller's communication.  The controller asked a question that the pilot answered (where do you park), and then there was the confusing yelling, as discussed at length above.

Let me suggest that the controller should have said "XXX, say entrance taxiway assigned by the ramp tower."  That would have been more clear, no?  Well, that wording is, in fact, from the FAA's sample letter of agreement appended to the Order on Standardized Taxi Routes.

See how following the "black and white" rules actually averts problems?

Best wishes,
Flyer
Logged
digger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 281


« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2006, 01:36:23 PM »

I was searching online for a reference that might detail how it works specifically at JFK, and haven't found anything. In the course of that though, I did come across an interesting thread on PPrune, that includes the points of view of both a controller and a pilot.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64195

Logged
Brad
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 54


WWW
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2006, 04:05:11 PM »

Wow I'm glad I stopped watching this thread a while ago  afro

Perhaps it's confusing because many people here are not pilots and specifically not commercial pilots. I am a pilot, but not a commercial pilot, but I know a few.

Typically if you're going to some place, let's say Denver, you would know your expected gate sometimes before you even take off, or your company would tell you through an air-to-ground communication while you're enroute.

I'm sure it works the same for JFK, but I would love to hear from a commercial pilot who has gone into JFK when they tell you what your ramp entrace is.

I can only imagine your ramp entrance is completely dependent on who is moving where in the ramp area at the time of your arrival. Unless the ramp control has it all carefully mapped out in advance, I imagine they couldn't tell your your ramp entrance until you're really close to arrival or perhaps even on the ground already.

So how about it? Any commercial pilots who go into JFK out there? Do you use comm #2 to talk to ramp control while the first officer talks to ground? Do they actually tell you in advance of your arrival? How does it work, I'm curious now.
Logged
Miyridian
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2006, 02:41:43 AM »

I can only imagine your ramp entrance is completely dependent on who is moving where in the ramp area at the time of your arrival. Unless the ramp control has it all carefully mapped out in advance, I imagine they couldn't tell your your ramp entrance until you're really close to arrival or perhaps even on the ground already.

Planes get their ramp assignments in advance, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the gate will be open when they land, and in that situation they either have to wait for it to open up or get a new gate - that decision is in the hands of those who control the ramp. If you listen to the Ground feed at a fairly busy time, you'll hear numerous planes that can't get into the ramp where they need to for whatever reason, and they have to be sent around to someplace where they can wait until the way to their gate is clear. Sometimes they'll get a different ramp assignment while they're waiting, and the Ground controller will have to get them from wherever they are to wherever they need to be (and they may have to wait to get in there also).

Logged
Fryy
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 420



WWW
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2006, 03:00:31 AM »

My dad is a pilot with American Airlines. He's flown various trips to JFK, if you want I can get some more info from him and post it.
Logged

Volunteer KSUU feeder
http://d.liveatc.net/ksuu.m3u
Brad
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 54


WWW
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2006, 01:27:11 PM »

My dad is a pilot with American Airlines. He's flown various trips to JFK, if you want I can get some more info from him and post it.

That would be excellent Fryy, thanks!
Logged
Brad
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 54


WWW
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2006, 01:30:05 PM »

I can only imagine your ramp entrance is completely dependent on who is moving where in the ramp area at the time of your arrival. Unless the ramp control has it all carefully mapped out in advance, I imagine they couldn't tell your your ramp entrance until you're really close to arrival or perhaps even on the ground already.

Planes get their ramp assignments in advance, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the gate will be open when they land, and in that situation they either have to wait for it to open up or get a new gate - that decision is in the hands of those who control the ramp. If you listen to the Ground feed at a fairly busy time, you'll hear numerous planes that can't get into the ramp where they need to for whatever reason, and they have to be sent around to someplace where they can wait until the way to their gate is clear. Sometimes they'll get a different ramp assignment while they're waiting, and the Ground controller will have to get them from wherever they are to wherever they need to be (and they may have to wait to get in there also).

I think many people have probably heard or experienced this scenario of the gate being full first hand. It isn't interesting or really any mystery at all so for as I can tell. The topic here, and my comments, were specifically directed toward the ongoing discussion of ramp control at JFK and hearing from someone who has first hand experience with that.
Logged
lipkinasl
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 16


« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2007, 09:05:24 PM »

I can't believe you are making such a fuss over this. Any plane that lands at JFK is asked "What taxiway are you going into the ramp?" as anyone who has listened to the JFK feed (ground or tower) for even a short amount of time would realise.  Of course this is not a common system and if you are a foreign pilot who has not been into JFK before then it can be a problem especially if English isn'y your 1st language.
Having said that - adequate pilot preparation - JFK is a major international airport - you know it is likely to be busy there, would it not be a good idea to check out with colleagues what to expect when you get there?

I'm not a pilot and I know that JFK's 1st question after you've cleared the runway is "What taxiway do you enter the ramp?"
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!