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Author Topic: JFK GND getting upset  (Read 45593 times)
digger
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« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2006, 07:02:41 AM »

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JFK has 9 individual terminals unlike other airports that may have one big terminal.  (then the gate number would be helpful).  Asking a pilot what taxiway he "usually" enters the ramp would make no sense since their gate could change day by day and that pilot may not have been at JFK for years. 


If that's the case, what's the point of asking the pilot anything at all about how he's going to enter the ramp ? He's mentally prepared to enter the ramp in accordance with instructions from the controller--not to tell the controller what he's going to do.

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I love the Monday morning quarterbacking on this website.  Its so easy to have all the answers when your able to sit home and listen to it on your computer, ....... I'm not agreeing with yelling, but I am sure it can very frustrating at times. 


I once worked for a guy who had the same sort of problem. If he explained once what he wanted you to do, but hadn't quite communicated it properly, his only alternate strategy was to explain it again, in the same words, but LOUDER. I'm sure he got frustrated too. He didn't have the mental agility or communication skills to do otherwise. Mental agility and communication skills are necessary ingredients in good ATC. Patience can be useful too. Maybe it is monday morning quarterbacking, but I didn't hear evidence of an abundance of any of those qualities in this clip.

The guy might be a great controller, but the clip in question was not one of his highlights. (And to be honest, that's why it's interesting enough to be posted here, isn't it?)

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juice19
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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2006, 01:09:33 AM »

Asking the pilot what taxiway entrance he needs for the ramp is an extremely valid question at JFK since all the terminals have more than one entrance.  The controller needs to know how to get the arrival to his entrance point so he can use correct taxiways to  get him there.  Also there maybe other aircraft on ground that may be traffic for the arrival, so he may have to stop someone or move someone out of the way.  Also there may be closed taxiways impacting the taxi route.  So asking "what entrance do you use for the ramp" is a pretty straight foward question.  Now, I agree asking it louder the second time may not work, but it is not a very confusing question.   Questioning the man's mental agility and communications skills because some foreign pilot couldn't understand a simple question is rather extreme.  Nobodys perfect and most controllers don't claim to be, but I hope you can see that simple questions that don't get answered can be very frustrating.  Patience is a virtue and I agree that that is the best route, however I am sure you know that atc is a fast moving animal and patience can be lost very quickly.
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penguin44
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« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2006, 02:05:10 AM »

Actually flying into Pearson, as a private flight or flying commercially in a p-12c, I am usually asked where I am going or I will be asked what taxiway I would like if it is not too busy. I usually take hotel3 or H3 since it's a high speed taxiway. But usually i just tell them I am going to GA parking and they say take taxiway blah blah via blah blah. I have never been asked what taxiway do I usually use. The answer to that is none, since I have never taken the same route twice on the ground. It's always around something due to traffic on the ground or what have you. Yesterday or should I say Saturday I was asked to exit right onto Rwy 15 and then exit to the first available taxiway. I have never done that so I was a little out of it. It was due to the fact there was another plane coming and another waiting for takeoff so they booted me as fast as possible. BTW it was fun, winds were 230-239 magnetic at 20kts-gusting 30kts. MMM. Fun. At least it was down the runway, there was a small 182 and he was trying to taxi out and finally said forget it and went back and parked.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 02:27:19 PM by penguin44 » Logged
digger
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« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2006, 01:06:24 PM »

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.... So asking "what entrance do you use for the ramp" is a pretty straight foward question.  Now, I agree asking it louder the second time may not work, but it is not a very confusing question.   Questioning the man's mental agility and communications skills because some foreign pilot couldn't understand a simple question is rather extreme.


Perhaps it is common practice at JFK to ask the pilots that question. Just to be sure I'm clear on the issues here, i just went back and listened to the clip again. What the controller said, repeatedly, which was obviously not understood by the pilot was, "What taxiway do you enter the ramp?" That kind of syntax would get a failing grade in a third grade elementary school class.

The controller had the responsibility to communicate his question. Clearly, by his reply, the pilot did not understand the question being asked. Which party was in a position to remedy that failure to clearly communicate?

My personal opinion only--the controller was more interested in having his question answered in the fashion he wanted it to be answered in, than he was in moving the traffic.
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flyer_d
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« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2006, 02:06:37 PM »

The answer to the question "what taxiway do you need to enter the ramp?" should not be "we park at gate B24."

Go listen to the clip again -- you have the exchagne wrong.  The controller asked "where do you park" and the pilot responded with the answer to that question ("bravo 28").

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Parking procedures are not  the same at every airport.  JFK has 9 individual terminals unlike other airports that may have one big terminal.  (then the gate number would be helpful).

See my post above.  B28 tells the controller EXACTLY where the pilot is going.

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Asking a pilot what taxiway he "usually" enters the ramp would make no sense since their gate could change day by day and that pilot may not have been at JFK for years.

Right.

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Asking the pilot what taxiway entrance he needs for the ramp is an extremely valid question at JFK since all the terminals have more than one entrance.  The controller needs to know how to get the arrival to his entrance point so he can use correct taxiways to  get him there.  Also there maybe other aircraft on ground that may be traffic for the arrival, so he may have to stop someone or move someone out of the way.  Also there may be closed taxiways impacting the taxi route.  So asking "what entrance do you use for the ramp" is a pretty straight foward question.  Now, I agree asking it louder the second time may not work, but it is not a very confusing question.

In fact it is a confusing question.  Everywhere else, the pilot tells the ground controller a destination, and the controller decides how to get the plane there -- because all of those factors you cite will be entirely unknown to the pilot.  Here's what I said on this point in an above post:

I have reviewed all AFD information on JFK and significant supplemental information not in the AFD, and I have never seen any discussion of this procedure.  Indeed, it is ground's responsibility to select appropriate taxiways.  If someone can point to an official FAA publication to the contrary, please do.  [snip]  If it is, in fact, an essential procedure, then the tower/FAA should establish and publish procedures.  For example, I am aware that landing pilots are expected to specify their hangar.  I have seen that published in JFK guidance.  Even if that applies to commercial ops (not sure; didn't have cause to check), that would have been fulfilled by the pilot's first response (gate number).

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Questioning the man's mental agility and communications skills because some foreign pilot couldn't understand a simple question is rather extreme.

It has nothing to do with being foreign.  The controller was unclear.

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juice19
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« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2006, 07:24:49 PM »

ok, heres how it works.  Each terminal has many gates and more than one  taxiway entrances to the ramp.  Each terminal has a ramp control.  The ramp control tells the pilot what gate they are going to and what taxiway entrance they would like the pilot to enter the ramp area through.  So when the ground controller asks the very valid question "what taxiway do you enter the ramp on?" the pilot should know or at least find out through the ramp control.  JKF ground does not control the ramp areas, the ramp control does.  So JFK Ground is trying to find out where the pilot needs to enter the ramp and then he will instruct the pilot on how to get to the entrance point.  Also, air traffic control phraseology is not perfect english.  The question was clear and valid.  Once the entrance to the ramp is know the ground controller will provide the taxi route. 
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digger
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« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2006, 09:01:32 PM »

Obviously, you're intimately familiar with how JFK operates. I'm not.

Just so we're on the same page, the pilot is expected to find out from ramp control, in advance of his contact with ground, which entrance he's supposed to use to enter the ramp. In other words, the responsibility is on the pilot to coordinate between his respective ramp control and ground control, and be prepared to communicate the required information to the ground controller. Is that correct?

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Also, air traffic control phraseology is not perfect english.  The question was clear and valid. 


Whatever the answer to the question I asked above, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Valid question? If my interpretation above is correct, then I'll concede that it is. Clear? Obviously it wasn't. The controller wasn't getting his meaning through to the pilot.

As I pointed out above, the order states:
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"NOTE-
Controllers may, after first using the prescribed phraseology for a specific procedure, rephrase the message to ensure the content is understood. Good judgment shall be exercised when using nonstandard phraseology. "

I doubt that the pilot was being deliberately obtuse. Maybe he actually was a dimwit. Nevertheless, the controller may have had better success if he'd phrased the question just a bit differently each time, until that little light bulb came on in the pilot's mind.    shocked  That's where I see that controller has room for improvement.
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flyer_d
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« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2006, 11:11:51 AM »

ok, heres how it works.  Each terminal has many gates and more than one  taxiway entrances to the ramp.  Each terminal has a ramp control.  The ramp control tells the pilot what gate they are going to and what taxiway entrance they would like the pilot to enter the ramp area through.  So when the ground controller asks the very valid question "what taxiway do you enter the ramp on?" the pilot should know or at least find out through the ramp control.

Please provide a link or direction to official published guidance to support this statement.
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juice19
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« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2006, 04:41:30 PM »

I am not sure where you find a publication on how pilots go about finding out the gate imformation and ramp entrances.  That I would assume that is between the ramp control of each terminal and the airlines they work with.  JFK has 9 terminals and each one has their own ramp controls and rules they work with.  But usually the pilot would know prior to landing what gate they are going to and hopefully what entrance to use to get to that gate.  And once on the ground, if he doesn't know, they would have to call the ramp control to find out. 

At JFK, language barrier is a huge issue.  Many foreign pilots from all over the world speaking many languages all trying to converse in English.  So, there can be confusion and frustration all the time.  I agree that rephrasing the question would help but and getting upset does not help at all.  But it does happen  in the crazy world of ATC, especially when dealing with many foreign pilots.  ATC's need answers to questions quickly to make there decisions in a timely manner.  You can't use kid gloves with one pilot for too long because you will fall behind on the rest of your traffic extremely quickly. Remember, its only one controller dealing with 40- 50 pilots at times and time management is crucial.
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sky_diving_lover
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« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2006, 04:47:56 PM »

Well I think it is so clear the pilot did not understood what was the controller saying in that case as a good controller to try explaining politely what do u mean for the pilot, the pilot has been flying for allots of hrs and was talking to allots of controllers and he might be stressed or upset but in that case he cannot leave the plain for another pilot but if u as a controller found ur self stressed u can ask your college to take over not start screaming over the mic,
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flyer_d
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« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2006, 05:37:02 PM »

I am not sure where you find a publication on how pilots go about finding out the gate imformation and ramp entrances.  That I would assume that is between the ramp control of each terminal and the airlines they work with.  JFK has 9 terminals and each one has their own ramp controls and rules they work with.  But usually the pilot would know prior to landing what gate they are going to and hopefully what entrance to use to get to that gate.  And once on the ground, if he doesn't know, they would have to call the ramp control to find out. 

As I thought, which pretty much settles this discussion.  You cannot say "heres [sic] how it works" unless you can provide a reference.  The FARs, the AIM, Order 7110.65, NOTAMs, etc., provide the operational rules for aviation.  There is no room for "I would assume" and "hopefully."  I don't mean to be picky or sound harsh, but if it's not in the rules, it doesn't exist.

(Your ramp point may be accurate but it misses the point -- those areas exist outside of the ATC system.  This was an exchange with ground control, not ramp control.)

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At JFK, language barrier is a huge issue.  Many foreign pilots from all over the world speaking many languages all trying to converse in English.  So, there can be confusion and frustration all the time.  I agree that rephrasing the question would help but and getting upset does not help at all.  But it does happen  in the crazy world of ATC, especially when dealing with many foreign pilots.  ATC's need answers to questions quickly to make there decisions in a timely manner.  You can't use kid gloves with one pilot for too long because you will fall behind on the rest of your traffic extremely quickly. Remember, its only one controller dealing with 40- 50 pilots at times and time management is crucial.

All the more reason to use standard phraseology.  Remember, it is the published standard phrases that all those foreign pilots will have studied, and that they will be expecting to hear on the radio.  (See the AIM and Order 7110.65 for tons of examples.)
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juice19
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« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2006, 10:35:10 AM »

Where aircraft park at their terminal is between the airlines and the ramp control who operate the terminal.  I am sure each company has a publication on ramp procedures but you would have to contact each airline to find out what their ramp procedures are.  Its not going to be an FAR, or be in the AIM or the 7110.65.  It is a company procedure, not an ATC procedure, and it would be a local procedure for each individual airport.  Just because is not published in the AIM, 7110.65 or FAR doesn't mean local procedures don't exist. 

As far as the exchange, the ground controller is asking the pilot where he is parking for the ramp.  They pilot gets that from his company or ramp control and then relays that to the controller.  As you said, that part of imformation gathering exists outside the ATC system (thats between pilot and company) The controller is asking where he needs to enter the ramp so he can get him to the entrance point.

As for the point, "if is not in the rules it doesn't exist"  you have to learn some more about ATC.  It is not a black and white world.
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flyer_d
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« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2006, 01:18:43 PM »

Where aircraft park at their terminal is between the airlines and the ramp control who operate the terminal.  I am sure each company has a publication on ramp procedures but you would have to contact each airline to find out what their ramp procedures are.  Its not going to be an FAR, or be in the AIM or the 7110.65.  It is a company procedure, not an ATC procedure, and it would be a local procedure for each individual airport.  Just because is not published in the AIM, 7110.65 or FAR doesn't mean local procedures don't exist. 

As far as the exchange, the ground controller is asking the pilot where he is parking for the ramp.  They pilot gets that from his company or ramp control and then relays that to the controller.  As you said, that part of imformation gathering exists outside the ATC system (thats between pilot and company) The controller is asking where he needs to enter the ramp so he can get him to the entrance point.

As for the point, "if is not in the rules it doesn't exist"  you have to learn some more about ATC.  It is not a black and white world.

Hi Juice.  Thanks for your post.  I don't want to be argumentative, and I considered not responding given your ridiculous last comment, so I'll cut this short.

Ramp controls operate under letters of agreement between carriers and the FAA.  These letters then become extensions of the FARs, AIM, Orders, etc.  They most certainly are "ATC procedures," and they are in "black and white."

If there is a letter of agreement for this airline that requires the pilot to specify his entrance taxiway (which there very well may be, in fact, I expect there is, and that's why I keep asking for a reference), then the pilot should have been prepared to specify the taxiway.

But that in no way justifies the controller's communication.  The controller asked a question that the pilot answered (where do you park), and then there was the confusing yelling, as discussed at length above.

Let me suggest that the controller should have said "XXX, say entrance taxiway assigned by the ramp tower."  That would have been more clear, no?  Well, that wording is, in fact, from the FAA's sample letter of agreement appended to the Order on Standardized Taxi Routes.

See how following the "black and white" rules actually averts problems?

Best wishes,
Flyer
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digger
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« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2006, 01:36:23 PM »

I was searching online for a reference that might detail how it works specifically at JFK, and haven't found anything. In the course of that though, I did come across an interesting thread on PPrune, that includes the points of view of both a controller and a pilot.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64195

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Brad
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« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2006, 04:05:11 PM »

Wow I'm glad I stopped watching this thread a while ago  afro

Perhaps it's confusing because many people here are not pilots and specifically not commercial pilots. I am a pilot, but not a commercial pilot, but I know a few.

Typically if you're going to some place, let's say Denver, you would know your expected gate sometimes before you even take off, or your company would tell you through an air-to-ground communication while you're enroute.

I'm sure it works the same for JFK, but I would love to hear from a commercial pilot who has gone into JFK when they tell you what your ramp entrace is.

I can only imagine your ramp entrance is completely dependent on who is moving where in the ramp area at the time of your arrival. Unless the ramp control has it all carefully mapped out in advance, I imagine they couldn't tell your your ramp entrance until you're really close to arrival or perhaps even on the ground already.

So how about it? Any commercial pilots who go into JFK out there? Do you use comm #2 to talk to ramp control while the first officer talks to ground? Do they actually tell you in advance of your arrival? How does it work, I'm curious now.
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Miyridian
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« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2006, 02:41:43 AM »

I can only imagine your ramp entrance is completely dependent on who is moving where in the ramp area at the time of your arrival. Unless the ramp control has it all carefully mapped out in advance, I imagine they couldn't tell your your ramp entrance until you're really close to arrival or perhaps even on the ground already.

Planes get their ramp assignments in advance, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the gate will be open when they land, and in that situation they either have to wait for it to open up or get a new gate - that decision is in the hands of those who control the ramp. If you listen to the Ground feed at a fairly busy time, you'll hear numerous planes that can't get into the ramp where they need to for whatever reason, and they have to be sent around to someplace where they can wait until the way to their gate is clear. Sometimes they'll get a different ramp assignment while they're waiting, and the Ground controller will have to get them from wherever they are to wherever they need to be (and they may have to wait to get in there also).

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Fryy
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« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2006, 03:00:31 AM »

My dad is a pilot with American Airlines. He's flown various trips to JFK, if you want I can get some more info from him and post it.
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Brad
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« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2006, 01:27:11 PM »

My dad is a pilot with American Airlines. He's flown various trips to JFK, if you want I can get some more info from him and post it.

That would be excellent Fryy, thanks!
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Brad
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« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2006, 01:30:05 PM »

I can only imagine your ramp entrance is completely dependent on who is moving where in the ramp area at the time of your arrival. Unless the ramp control has it all carefully mapped out in advance, I imagine they couldn't tell your your ramp entrance until you're really close to arrival or perhaps even on the ground already.

Planes get their ramp assignments in advance, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the gate will be open when they land, and in that situation they either have to wait for it to open up or get a new gate - that decision is in the hands of those who control the ramp. If you listen to the Ground feed at a fairly busy time, you'll hear numerous planes that can't get into the ramp where they need to for whatever reason, and they have to be sent around to someplace where they can wait until the way to their gate is clear. Sometimes they'll get a different ramp assignment while they're waiting, and the Ground controller will have to get them from wherever they are to wherever they need to be (and they may have to wait to get in there also).

I think many people have probably heard or experienced this scenario of the gate being full first hand. It isn't interesting or really any mystery at all so for as I can tell. The topic here, and my comments, were specifically directed toward the ongoing discussion of ramp control at JFK and hearing from someone who has first hand experience with that.
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lipkinasl
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« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2007, 09:05:24 PM »

I can't believe you are making such a fuss over this. Any plane that lands at JFK is asked "What taxiway are you going into the ramp?" as anyone who has listened to the JFK feed (ground or tower) for even a short amount of time would realise.  Of course this is not a common system and if you are a foreign pilot who has not been into JFK before then it can be a problem especially if English isn'y your 1st language.
Having said that - adequate pilot preparation - JFK is a major international airport - you know it is likely to be busy there, would it not be a good idea to check out with colleagues what to expect when you get there?

I'm not a pilot and I know that JFK's 1st question after you've cleared the runway is "What taxiway do you enter the ramp?"
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The Hoffspatcher
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« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2007, 08:46:35 AM »

Oh that guy stressing out in the background is reeeeally funny!  cheesy

A guy I know is a jetBlue A320 driver, he tells me he avoids JFK like the plauge because its a mess, which is why he's in BOS
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Ben Hoffman; BAv, ADX
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« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2007, 08:54:31 AM »

The problem is that they can't understand/speak English... and that's what makes it difficult for the controller.
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tremendous
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« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2007, 07:03:10 AM »

hah, this guy is great. always the best listening on the JFK tower.

but then all these guys sound the same to me. haha.
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