JFK on CNN

[NY Z Pilot]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2009/09/29/carroll.simulated.skies.cnn?iref=videosearch

[philip]

that's good that

[cptkirk]

I don't understand why the Air Traffic Controllers Union would not be in favor of such training.

Can any union members out there tell me why this is a bad thing?

[rekno13]

I'm not from the union, but just from what I was hearing in the segment, it sounds like they are opposed to the replacement of traditional training techniques.

[atcman23]

I don't understand why the Air Traffic Controllers Union would not be in favor of such training.

Can any union members out there tell me why this is a bad thing?

I'm not sure myself... saves time and money on both ends really.  My guess is that it has something to do with money as trainers probably get a training "incentive" (i.e. extra pay for training someone).  The FAA isn't replacing traditional training (OJT training is effective) but this new form of training has been in the works for years now (I remember when Cleveland Center implemented this technique years ago).  Several CTI schools also use similar Adacel simulators (UND, ERAU).  But yeah, kind of surprised me that NATCA is apparently against shorter training times... perhaps the guy in the interview is no longer a regional VP (??).  I have nothing against NATCA, they actually have done some good things for the controllers in years' past (and when I  actually start my job, I do plan on joining myself) but I found it odd that the union is against taking the training time in the tower from about 5 years (or, 1/5th of the controller's career assuming a 25 year career) to 1 1/2 - 3 years.  Center controllers are around 3-5 years still, but this is way down from the past and the additional time is necessary as center controllers must know a lot of procedures and be prepared for literally anything.

Personally, I think the simulated training is great as it allows trainees exposure to situations not commonly found on the job (emergencies, etc.) and also allows trainees and facilities to hone in a trainee's skills to make them more proficient in the cab.  That way, when they do start the OJT training next to a trainer, they already know what to expect.  If you ask me, that's like studying for a test well in advance of taking the test.

[aevins]

He's still the facrep at Kennedy (I'm sure many recognize his voice - most recently "real non-stop flight"). But, if you go back and listen to the question he asked Hank Krakowski during the last Communicating for Safety conference, that may shed some light on the situation. (Hint: it has to do with wash-out rates and OTS hired trainees).

[scorpia54]

i want one!

[atcman23]

He's still the facrep at Kennedy (I'm sure many recognize his voice - most recently "real non-stop flight"). But, if you go back and listen to the question he asked Hank Krakowski during the last Communicating for Safety conference, that may shed some light on the situation. (Hint: it has to do with wash-out rates and OTS hired trainees).

Hehe yeah that's a whole different story there.  Maybe one day the FAA will quit wasting taxpayers' money on hiring people right off the street who know absolutely nothing about aviation only for them to wash out.  There's 31 CTI schools now (give or take a few) and I think that would make for a really good pool of candidates along with the military.  But it may be a law somewhere that says they have to open up the application to OTS applicants (and if that's the case, they're without much of a choice), but they've done some serious advertising to get OTS applicants and boy have they got a lot of them!

[oreotsi]

So they should have quit wasting the taxpayer's money back in the 80's as well? Maybe it was different back in the "old days." How quickly people forget I guess.
Its interesting how many people think that they were born air traffic controllers and that no one else can do the job unless they went to specialized schools or the military first. I know more than a few good controllers who took this job after the strike because they didn't have anything else lined up. 20something years later they still seem to be doing a fine job.

[rosie]

I didn't forget what it was like twenty years ago. You went through eight weeks in OKC, in something called the screen. The first day in the academy they said "Look around, 70% of the people in this room will fail and not be air traffic controllers".

Now you go to OKC for a training program where 90%+ pass and are sent to air traffic facilities to train. The success rates in traing now are much lower because there is NO screening process in Oklahoma.

[evilcuban]

I recognized the voice of that guy in the light yellow striped shirt from listening to JFK...

As someone going through the process (PUBNAT7) now I'm hearing all kinds of things about how OTS fail out, CTI is better, or the training sucks, or too many "kids" are failing out.  What can I do?  Put my head down, work hard, and give it my all.  Don't need to talk about my AT-SAT score on forums, or what facility I want to work at, or whatever.  While some new hires might be catching some heat from trainers because the FAA has changed their training practices or whatever other undercurrents exist, you have to appreciate the stress and importance of their position as well.  Regardless, none of it changes my desire to be a controller.

[atcman23]

I recognized the voice of that guy in the light yellow striped shirt from listening to JFK...

As someone going through the process (PUBNAT7) now I'm hearing all kinds of things about how OTS fail out, CTI is better, or the training sucks, or too many "kids" are failing out.  What can I do?  Put my head down, work hard, and give it my all.  Don't need to talk about my AT-SAT score on forums, or what facility I want to work at, or whatever.  While some new hires might be catching some heat from trainers because the FAA has changed their training practices or whatever other undercurrents exist, you have to appreciate the stress and importance of their position as well.  Regardless, none of it changes my desire to be a controller.

Very well stated!

[glencar]

Just one more thing to drag out training. The wash-out rate might decline because of this innovation but it's hard to teach "spunk" to some of these people.

ETA: CNN's audio quality is horrible!