Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 24, 2014, 02:52:00 PM
Home Help Login Register      
News: NEW Follow LiveATC updates on Twitter and Facebook


+  LiveATC Discussion Forums
|-+  Air Traffic Monitoring
| |-+  Aviation Audio Clips (Moderators: dave, RonR)
| | |-+  KABE Runway Incursion
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: KABE Runway Incursion  (Read 19292 times)
121mhz
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7


« on: September 25, 2008, 04:52:40 AM »

NTSB is investigating a runway incursion at KABE at about 2330Z on 19 Sep 2008.  Recording from LiveATC is attached.  There is no clipping of silence from the point in time when Mesa 7138 (air shuttle 7138) is instructed to TIPH.  6GV was given just 15 seconds to clear the runway at A4 before ASH7138 is given takeoff clearance.  It's about another 10 seconds before 6GV reports missing A4 and asking for B taxiway.  Seems to me like the controller cleared ASH7138 for takeoff without confirming that 6GV had cleared the runway.

Rumor on the line is that the two controllers on duty at ABE tower were CITs (trainees), so where was the CPC (trainer)Huh  Of course, that's just rumor at this point, but NTSB will determine the truth.

Here's the NTSB press release:

The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating a runway incursion Friday evening in Allentown, Pennsylvania involving a general aviation aircraft and a Chicago-bound regional jet airliner.

At 7:45 p.m. on September 19, a Cessna R172K (N736GV) was on a landing roll on runway 6 at the Lehigh Valley International Airport when the pilot was instructed to exit the runway at taxiway A4. Mesa Airlines flight 7138, a CRJ- 700 (N506MJ), already instructed to position and hold on the same runway, was then given clearance by the same controller to take off.

During the takeoff roll, the Mesa crew heard the Cessna pilot say that he'd missed the taxiway A4 turnoff and ask to exit at taxiway B. The Mesa crew saw the Cessna ahead on the runway and aborted the takeoff at about 120 knots, swerving around the Cessna. The Mesa crew estimated that they missed colliding with the Cessna by about 10 feet.

Night visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and there were no reported injuries to the 60 persons aboard the jet or those aboard the Cessna.

 
Logged
Jason
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1260


CFI/CFII


« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2008, 07:47:17 AM »

I heard about this incident last week...thanks for posting.

Best,
Jason
Logged
ogogog
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 120



« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2008, 08:55:45 AM »

the CPCs were working in the tracon i guess, it didnt say if the 2 were alone or there was a CIC in the tower with them.welcome to the new FAA ,thank god i only have 190 days left.
Logged
RV1
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 104


« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2008, 11:41:41 AM »

In most up/down facilities, you will check out in the tower first then start training in the radar room. Therefore, you can still be a CIT but be by yourself in the tower. In the current staffing situation in the FAA new hires are being rushed through the system, often turned out to be on their own, before they're truly ready.
  How many CFII's would do that to a student pilot?
  There is a certain amount of 'seasoning' (and I don't mean salt/pepper!) that each controller should receive before being self-supported. This isn't happening.
 

   Tired of hearing us complain?! We're not doing this for your sympathy. I/we don't need/want that. We're doing this for your safety! (that and the fact that I like to be able to sleep at night without reliving the midair collision and wondering what else I could have done to prevent it.) It's sorta like a hot dog. When you're eating it, you don't want to know what's in it. You just want to know that it won't kill you. If, however, you get sick, you'll want to know what you ate, and why were you allowed to eat it, and why didn't the govt. pull it from the shelves. Most people don't want to know what's happening in the FAA, are tired of hearing about staffing this, and IWRs that etc, as long as ATC takes care of them. Have a NMAC or runway incursion and all of a sudden people want to know why there weren't two people in the tower, where was the seasoned veteran when the CIT cleared the plane for takeoff before the runway was clear...
    Not a pilot? Doesn't matter, planes fly over your house also. The web site planecrashinfo.com has listing of plane crashes throughout the history of flight. One vital piece of info is the number of fatalities that were on the ground.
Logged

Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
KSYR-pjr
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1722



« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2008, 11:52:15 AM »

The web site planecrashinfo.com has listing of plane crashes throughout the history of flight. One vital piece of info is the number of fatalities that were on the ground.

One point to keep in mind when considering ground-based fatalities is that these historically and currently remain at a very low percentage, at least here in the US.
Logged

Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
keith
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 275


WWW
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2008, 01:12:28 PM »

Wow, the controller sounds very shaken towards the end of that recording.

It'll be interesting to see if the controller couldn't tell if the Cessna was clear of the runway (ie, hard to see at night), or if he simply didn't look closely.  If it's the former, then asking aircraft to report clear might be useful in the future. If he didn't look closely on this occasion and simply assumed the plane would be out of the way in time, then obviously that's a separate issue.

One thing that leaps to mind right away is that the Cessna on the runway could've maintained better situational awareness, thinking "ok, the regional jet is now in position behind us..."

Upon hearing the takeoff clearance for the jet, unless the pilot of the Cessna was less than a few seconds away from exiting the runway, he/she should've immediately notified tower that they were not yet clear of the runway.

I'm so glad that nobody was hurt. The incident, though, should be treated just as seriously, though.  It was shear luck that it didn't turn out worse.

Logged

KS Flight Log - pics, videos, ATC/intercom audio and in depth flight reviews
PilotEdge - add ATC to your simulation experience
tyketto
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2008, 01:45:38 PM »

Okay.. couple of questions here.

KABE is a Class C field. no problem here.

This happened around 2345Z, which would be around 7:45pm local time. Sort of a problem. Here's why. According to the report,

Quote
Night visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and there were no reported injuries to the 60 persons aboard the jet or those aboard the Cessna.

During this time of the year, this would put it past dusk/sunset. Didn't the FAA mandate no TIPH after sunset, especially because of that incident at LAX? I know of the new mandate for daytime that a lot of airports got waivers for, but I didn't know of any ones that had waivers at night. Anybody in the know on nighttime waivers for TIPH know if this is true or not?

BL.
Logged
121mhz
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7


« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2008, 01:47:08 PM »

Yeah I was thinking the same, also it sounds like there are two voices from 6GV, so I'm guessing Pilot and Instructor.  There's a good chance they were talking while exiting the runway and didn't hear the RJ cleared for takeoff.
Logged
cessna157
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 708



WWW
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2008, 02:28:50 PM »

So here's a question to ponder:  What happens to the controllers?  Decertify?  Letter in their file?  Suspension?  Termination?  Or just continue training?

I personally believe they should get a letter put into their file and allowed to continue as they were.  From the tone of his voice, this is a mistake that the controller learned from, and will most likely never make again.  He will probably be one of the safer controllers out there.
Logged

CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
jonboudreaux
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 28


« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2008, 04:54:26 PM »

Didn't the FAA mandate no TIPH after sunset, especially because of that incident at LAX?

The rule is you are not allowed to TIPH at an intersection at night, unless certain requirements are met (i.e. a facility directive approves it, the runway is only used for departures, etc.)
Logged
tyketto
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2008, 06:33:56 PM »

Didn't the FAA mandate no TIPH after sunset, especially because of that incident at LAX?

The rule is you are not allowed to TIPH at an intersection at night, unless certain requirements are met (i.e. a facility directive approves it, the runway is only used for departures, etc.)

Good catch. I forgot that it was for an intersection.

But then, wouldn't the other mandate apply, assumimg that KABE did not apply for, or applied for but was denied the waiver?

BL.
Logged
jonboudreaux
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 28


« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2008, 06:46:12 PM »

Didn't the FAA mandate no TIPH after sunset, especially because of that incident at LAX?

The rule is you are not allowed to TIPH at an intersection at night, unless certain requirements are met (i.e. a facility directive approves it, the runway is only used for departures, etc.)

Good catch. I forgot that it was for an intersection.

But then, wouldn't the other mandate apply, assumimg that KABE did not apply for, or applied for but was denied the waiver?

BL.


Well, my understanding is you have to have a facility directive approved by the region to have any TIPH procedures whatsoever. If a facility needs nighttime TIPH procedures for intersection departures, I would imagine those have to spelled out as well.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 06:49:10 PM by jonboudreaux » Logged
mhawke
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 106


« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2008, 07:46:46 PM »

Just a couple questions from a non-pilot but frequent passenger...


I realize it was dusk/night, but shouldn't the RJ pilot/co-pilot be able to see that the runway is clear prior to starting the takeoff roll?

Followup to that one, if you know you have been TIPH right behind a plane that just landed, wouldn't you watch to see them clear the runway just to make sure?
Logged
pilot221
Guest
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2008, 07:59:34 PM »

So here's a question to ponder:  What happens to the controllers?  Decertify?  Letter in their file?  Suspension?  Termination?  Or just continue training?

At my facility (no feed on here, what gives?) we had something like this happen. Anyways, people come and investigate. Ya, seriously. They get paid to try to figure out what happened when it's no secret what happened. They look at paperwork, listen to the tapes, etc. They come into the tower...stare at the airport like they are doing something important. They leave. Then they send other people weeks later to observe normal operations and figure out what kind of new bs rules they should come up with non related to the original event. They leave and the end result is that we are not doing our jobs...expected. Blame never gets put on pilots...nope...not even a thought that it might have been.

As for the controller, they will get interviewed, scolded, decertified and not be able to work but still have to come to work so everyone can ask them about it as if they haven't talked enough about it already. They will be required to check out on position again with a minimum number of hours and life goes on.

What will happen to ABE? Probably what happens all the time someone makes a MISTAKE. They will come out with new procedures, close the taxiway because they'll find it's confusing for pilots, take away position and hold, require 12 people be in the tower, etc etc etc.

He is lucky he used proper phraseology when that touch and go aircraft was arriving behind the departure. Something easily overlooked sometimes.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 08:26:39 PM by pt9 » Logged
cessna157
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Posts: 708



WWW
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2008, 08:00:40 PM »

It has been a while since I've flown into ABE, but someone mentioned the runway is humped, making it not possible to see the runway from each end.  Lexington, KY is a prime example of this.  Runway 22 slopes downhill midfield.  So if someone lands on 4 and you go into position behind them, you'll never be able to see them until you're halfway down the runway.
Logged

CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!