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Author Topic: KABE Runway Incursion  (Read 20357 times)
pilot221
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« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2008, 08:02:19 PM »

I realize it was dusk/night, but shouldn't the RJ pilot/co-pilot be able to see that the runway is clear prior to starting the takeoff roll?

Followup to that one, if you know you have been TIPH right behind a plane that just landed, wouldn't you watch to see them clear the runway just to make sure?

Not always. Runways are not flat. They dip and go up and go down. If someone is at one end and someone else is at the other. You may not see them until you get over the hump.
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cessna157
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« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2008, 08:06:03 PM »

At my facility (no feed on here, what gives?) we had something like this happen. Kinda weird. Anyways, people come and investigate. Ya, seriously. They get paid to try to figure out what happened when it's no secret what happened. They look at paperwork, listen to the tapes, etc. They come into the tower...stare at the airport like they are doing something important. They leave. Then they send other people weeks later to observe normal operations and figure out what kind of new bs rules they should come up with non related to the original event. They leave and the end result is that we are not doing our jobs...expected. Blame never gets put on pilots...nope...not even a thought that it might have been.

You make it sound like a new rule that comes from an unfortunate situation is a bad rule?  Is it wrong to learn from others' mistakes?

Sometimes new rules come from negative experiences, but the rule goes over the top.  For example, there is a city in Ohio where it is illegal to eat ice cream while walking down the sidewalk on a Sunday, true law.  Or the new 8+ mile JFK rule that is being discussed in another thread.

But many times when something bad happens a new rule comes into play, then we think nothing of it later.  Who's to say how many times the new rule has saved lives/injuries/dollars?  For example, the TPH at intersections at night rule.
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pilot221
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« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2008, 08:18:58 PM »

At my facility (no feed on here, what gives?) we had something like this happen. Kinda weird. Anyways, people come and investigate. Ya, seriously. They get paid to try to figure out what happened when it's no secret what happened. They look at paperwork, listen to the tapes, etc. They come into the tower...stare at the airport like they are doing something important. They leave. Then they send other people weeks later to observe normal operations and figure out what kind of new bs rules they should come up with non related to the original event. They leave and the end result is that we are not doing our jobs...expected. Blame never gets put on pilots...nope...not even a thought that it might have been.

You make it sound like a new rule that comes from an unfortunate situation is a bad rule?  Is it wrong to learn from others' mistakes?

Sometimes new rules come from negative experiences, but the rule goes over the top.  For example, there is a city in Ohio where it is illegal to eat ice cream while walking down the sidewalk on a Sunday, true law.  Or the new 8+ mile JFK rule that is being discussed in another thread.

But many times when something bad happens a new rule comes into play, then we think nothing of it later.  Who's to say how many times the new rule has saved lives/injuries/dollars?  For example, the TPH at intersections at night rule.

You don't get to see the nonsense the faa comes up with, most new rules or procedures are knee jerk reactions man.

So you think it's acceptable to close a taxiway (close as in tear up the concrete) because someone couldn't find it in the dark when it has worked just fine for 20+ years? All these new procedures just make it more demanding and sometimes harder for us...like closing a taxiway.

Yea, the taxi into position and hold at an intersection...ok...? We don't even have taxi into position and hold at our airport but guess who does? LAX. Incidents there are the reason why waivers for it got started...good thing they still are able to do it.

How about detailed taxi instructions? Guess what, that is causing more confusion than anything. More work for us. It's ok, you aren't required to read it back or follow the route. It's only a deviation should you taxi onto a runway...as it was before this new procedure came into effect. It's stupid.

There's plenty of stupid stuff out there. They don't make sense or even deal with the matter at hand that started it all.
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121mhz
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« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2008, 11:27:31 PM »

I agree there's a lot of stupidity to the rules, and most rules are knee jerk reactions required because otherwise the next time it happens lawyers will swarm the FAA.

That said, I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect that the Cessna could've turned off the runway at A4.  That's about 1500' of runway, at night.  If he made it great, but the controller should've confirmed that he made the taxiway.  From listening to the tape and running the timeframe in my mind, I would say the cessna was probably still in the flare, or maybe just decelerating when the controller asked him to make A4.  He shouldn't have accepted the clearance, and he definitely should've said something to the RJ when he heard the takeoff clearance, but I this (from a regulatory) perspective, the controller is at fault.

IMHO, Regardless of whose at fault, I don't want to die in a fireball caused by someone not checking to see if the runway is clear first.  I always listen to other traffic and have even avoided collision because of it.  There was a time I was cleared to land and as I turned short final a corporate jet was cleared to TIPH.  The jet pilot declined the clearance and I thanked him for listening (I was in a position he couldn't see at the time).

I'll take a few extra rules that I have to follow because the alternative is simply unacceptable.  Remember, if the pilot screws up, the pilot dies, if the controller screws up, the pilot still dies. (Unless you're in Switzerland, eh).
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pilot221
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« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2008, 11:42:44 PM »

I'm not saying this wasn't the controllers fault because it was. You don't clear someone to go without the scan. I can only imagine the amount of garbage this facility is dealing with now though. They are in for some new changes that probably shouldn't be made. Decertify and retrain the guy...no problem with that, but when they start doing other things that everyone knows won't fix anything...that's where it gets ridiculous. Mistakes happen, leave them at that...new procedures aren't going to fix what happened or prevent the same thing. That's human error, the one time he forgot to scan the runway probably. Simple as that.

It's sad how many times we do the right thing and one screw up erases all that. Nobody ever looks at how many times we saved someone or helped someone out, unfortunately.

But, it sure is fun  grin
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englishpilot
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2008, 11:44:13 PM »

It has been a while since I've flown into ABE, but someone mentioned the runway is humped, making it not possible to see the runway from each end.  Lexington, KY is a prime example of this.  Runway 22 slopes downhill midfield.  So if someone lands on 4 and you go into position behind them, you'll never be able to see them until you're halfway down the runway.

I fly at KLEX very often - you're absolutely right
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I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe.
121mhz
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« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2008, 12:00:21 AM »


It's sad how many times we do the right thing and one screw up erases all that. Nobody ever looks at how many times we saved someone or helped someone out, unfortunately.


I needed ABE one day when my door popped open in flight.  Scared the life outta me and my wife, but I kept my cool and made a nice ILS to 6 (the same runway) at ABE.  Controllers were very helpful and believe me, I appreciated having them on the other end of the radio.
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