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Author Topic: KFMY 4-16-2012 poor student in cross country!, many mistakes.  (Read 16855 times)
XA-CMF
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« on: April 17, 2012, 10:00:58 AM »

Ok, at least he remain calm, but too many mistakes in less than 15 mins!!! Is it possible that he could be grounded at the moment he arrives at plataform? ATC is very upset because the mistakes.

03:00 Show begins.
09:00 First Error!
10:00 Second Error!
13:30 Lands! (thanks God!)
14:00 Already in Ground, all confuse! no Airport Chart!
15:20 Completely lost! TWR already mad!!
17:01 Still Lost!! needs a GPS!! KFMY is not KORD o KJFK!!!
Finally, it arrives at the FBO! poor guy!!! I did not hear it taking off anymore.

* KFMY-Apr-16-2012-2030Z.mp3 (7422 KB - downloaded 4887 times.)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 10:05:43 AM by dave » Logged

englishpilot
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 11:59:39 AM »

Poor fella. 
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 12:17:17 PM »

I am sure he isn't the first student to have trouble in his cross-country.  Hopefully he can get some intensive instruction to get himself better trained.
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Robert Larson
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 10:36:57 PM »

That was pretty brutal. Some ideas might be to ID himself as a student (if he was in fact one (let's hope)), and ask for progressive taxi. The controller could've been a little gentler too. I'm not sure his hollering at the guy helped him be any less nervous.
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mik_ny
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2012, 01:01:06 AM »

KFMY, Airport Diagram
N9247V, FlightSafety
Radar, Page back to Vero Beach
Edited copy ...
and the departure to return Vero Beach

* KFMY-Apr-16-2012-2030Z.mp3 (5445.36 KB - downloaded 3400 times.)
* KFMY-twr.mp3 (3493.53 KB - downloaded 1617 times.)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 01:56:06 AM by mik_ny » Logged
XA-CMF
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2012, 01:46:04 PM »

Maybe was his first cross country, but I guess he could prepare him self better, it looks to be a domestic fella, so I think language was not an issue.

about TWR, I think he got mad when he was flying in the opposite direction as traffic was also a factor.

But anyhow, I hope the student takes this as a good lesson and get prepare better for the next fly!

Cheers and thank you for posting your opinions!



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StuSEL
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2012, 05:33:15 PM »

Woah, that's a rough controller. Yikes.

Edit: 18:30...he's still lost LOL.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 05:34:46 PM by StuSEL » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2012, 09:37:34 PM »

It's easy to see both sides of this situation.  The controller's primary job is to keep planes separated, and they are constantly under pressure.  Though this didn't seem like a particularly busy tower.  Surely, his "customer service skills" could use some work.  But pilots that are this lost need to get remedial training, and fast.  

The pilot clearly needs lots more training on situational awareness, at a minimum.  And more training on communicating.  But he could have benefited from some better care and guidance.



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pilotdave1970
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« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2012, 10:32:48 PM »

maybe a special Squawk code for students is necessary ?
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2012, 02:33:54 PM »

maybe a special Squawk code for students is necessary ?
Nah, I think the pilot made it pretty clear he was a student!  grin  Besides, he probably would have got that wrong, too.
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sluf4
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2012, 11:25:02 PM »

not a very helpful controller there, but then again this kind of thing could really lead to an accident.  I think some more dual instruction is in order, but maybe the guy learned a valuable lesson at least.
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jschou
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2012, 04:07:56 PM »

My first thought was, "I'd like to be a fly on the wall for THAT debriefing" from a first solo cross-country.

Then, a whole bunch of other thoughts came up:

- How well was the student's preflight preparation vetted by the instructor?
- By attempting to do a 45° intercept of the left downwind ( despite tower instructions ), the student demonstrates that away from KVRB, his training provided him with default behavior you'd expect at a non-tower airport, to the exclusion of ATC instruction. This raised the question of whether FlightSafety does any training to "foreign" tower-controlled airports before a student's solo cross-country phase, or not.
- Becoming "familiar with all available information for that flight" is a pretty big tent, and should be even moreso for a student. It seems like printing out an airport chart and having it readily available would be basic. This comes back to how well the student is being monitored WRT their flight preparation habits, BEFORE they're unleashed into the wild.
- By all means, the student should have said "unfamiliar" and asked for progressive taxi, but it's clear that he was still flustered from his airspace gaffe and might have screwed up execution in any event. There's also a pretty good chance that - alone, and landing on a wider runway than he's accustomed to - he rounded out/flared high and landed pretty hard, compounding the "flustration".

Whenever I've found myself a little "out of sorts" when airborne, I have never encountered a voice from ATC that failed to improve my circumstance. They want to help however they can, and pretty much always succeed at it. This controller didn't, alas.

I've always held FlightSafety up as the Gold Standard in flight instruction ( in my mind, anyway ). Seeing how instructor attention could have precluded this incident ever having occurred raises my esteem for the place I learned to fly. I prefer to think that the more interesting debriefing would see this student's instructor under the harsh lights, but I'm a bit too cynical to believe that it ever happened.
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Kaliber35
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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2012, 04:49:04 PM »

Reminds me of my TWR encounter after returning from my cross country.  TWR kept pulling me off final due to faster traffic.  3 times I was given vectors away from the airport.  I wasnt doing anything wrong, just going slow.  At one point he asked me to do a 360 and then continue on final.  I told him I was a student pilot and was starting to feel overwhelmed.  He apologized, assured me he would get me on the ground, and then last minute tossed me on a completely different runway. lol  He did tell me on the ground that I did a great job listening and following directions. An instructor back at school was in the air and heard everything and said,"man, that controller was picking on you".  I felt like part of the airport that day.  lol

I should try to cut the audio and upload it one day.
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joeyb747
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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2012, 12:10:42 PM »

"flustration".

I like that word...fits the situation well!
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Fred_Garvin
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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2012, 08:47:52 AM »

I can't help but think the tower was enjoying giving the flustered guy a hard time.
I can understand why the guys at JFK are short but this was a far cry from that.

If you are really concerned about the pilots situational awareness you aren't going to help matters acting like that.  Think the pilot needs more training? no time like the present.  You can make the situation worse or make it a learning experience.

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shawnbhandal
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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2012, 07:10:51 PM »

I have not listened to the clip yet, still downloading. But based on the replies here, I am wondering why is no one blaming the instructor?
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StuSEL
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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2012, 09:37:00 PM »

What instructor?
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« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2012, 10:30:31 PM »

Im a student at the airport Vero Beach but  not in flightsafety (thank god).
What I heard is the training not that good at all, and that the instructors (a few not all) not really give a shit!
Trust me it is really fun to just listen to the atc in vrb at 8am when about 100 flight safety students is about to take over the sky in vero! Wink
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2012, 12:26:03 AM »

Usually the hypothetical CVR transcript for a student adventure like that ends with "sound of impact", so the fact that he was able to take a bus home and avoid killing anybody else should be considered a blessing. I agree that his instructor should never have signed off for the CC, but there again I heard that instructors in Florida only excel at teaching foreign students about the enroute phase of flight of large turbine aircraft and how to impale them into tall buildings.

Anyway, when I learned to fly at HPN in the dead of winter some thirty years ago I had already been beaten and humiliated by the machine-gun New York controllers to the point that by the time I flew to Concord, NH I felt like a Pan Am captain.
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Eric M
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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2012, 12:19:15 PM »

InterpeDemon, I wish there was a "Like" button on this thing. Bravo!
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iskyfly
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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2012, 12:45:54 PM »

What instructor?

The instructor that signed off / endorsed the student's logbook for solo flight per the following;

Quote
Sec. 61.87 — Solo requirements for student pilots.
 (a) General. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student has met the requirements of this section. The term “solo flight” as used in this subpart means that flight time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember.

 (b) Aeronautical knowledge. A student pilot must demonstrate satisfactory aeronautical knowledge on a knowledge test that meets the requirements of this paragraph:

 (1) The test must address the student pilot's knowledge of—

(i) Applicable sections of parts 61 and 91 of this chapter;

 (ii) Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo flight will be performed; and

 (iii) Flight characteristics and operational limitations for the make and model of aircraft to be flown.

 (2) The student's authorized instructor must—

(i) Administer the test; and

 (ii) At the conclusion of the test, review all incorrect answers with the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight.

 (c) Pre-solo flight training. Prior to conducting a solo flight, a student pilot must have:

 (1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and model of aircraft to be flown; and

 (2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.

 (d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-engine airplane rating or privileges must receive and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:

 (1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

 (2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

 (3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

 (4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

 (5) Climbs and climbing turns;

 (6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;

 (7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;

 (8.) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;

 (9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

 (10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;

 (11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

 (12) Ground reference maneuvers;

 (13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;

 (14) Slips to a landing; and

 (15) Go-arounds.

  (1) An endorsement from an authorized instructor on his or her student pilot certificate for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and

 (2) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown by an authorized instructor, who gave the training within the 90 days preceding the date of the flight.

 (o) Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight at night. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight at night unless that student pilot has received:

 (1) Flight training at night on night flying procedures that includes takeoffs, approaches, landings, and go-arounds at night at the airport where the solo flight will be conducted;

 (2) Navigation training at night in the vicinity of the airport where the solo flight will be conducted; and

 (3) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown for night solo flight by an authorized instructor who gave the training within the 90-day period preceding the date of the flight.

 (p) Limitations on flight instructors authorizing solo flight. No instructor may authorize a student pilot to perform a solo flight unless that instructor has—

(1) Given that student pilot training in the make and model of aircraft or a similar make and model of aircraft in which the solo flight is to be flown;

 (2) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the maneuvers and procedures prescribed in this section;

 (3) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the make and model of aircraft to be flown;

 (4) Ensured that the student pilot's certificate has been endorsed by an instructor authorized to provide flight training for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and

 (5) Endorsed the student pilot's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown, and that endorsement remains current for solo flight privileges, provided an authorized instructor updates the student's logbook every 90 days thereafter.

Shawnbhandal is correct in implying that the instructor is to share some (if not all of the) blame in this.
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martyj19
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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2012, 01:57:09 PM »

The instructor who signed off this cross country could very well have some 'splainin to do.
Moreover this particular establishment has Part 141 rights so it is possible that the supervising FSDO might take an interest in this case.

We've all got a story or two from solo cross countries though.
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2012, 02:47:25 PM »

Yeah, Marty, and doubtless most of those stories will go to the grave along with all those miraculously found sliced tee shots, unreported cash income and the other women.
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KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
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« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2012, 03:12:07 PM »

I can understand some of the controller's frustration at the beginning, but I think he crossed the line once the pilot was on the ground. He was basically just heckling the pilot the end there.

He also blocked him a number of times. In one case, he asked the pilot a question, was silent for 5 seconds, and then started transmitting with some instructions.  That's just asking for a block.

I'm baffled, however, how a student (had to be a student) could be so unprepared to fly into a towered airport and still receive a sign off from the instructor for the flight. The pilot actually sounds fairly bright to me (it's very subjective, but I have a feeling he could be getting this right if he was better prepared by his instructor).

Great recording, thanks for posting it....excellent training material for every student and private pilot as a reminder of the importance of being prepared, and the importance of listening and attempting to comply with ATC's instructions.
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2012, 05:32:18 PM »

Dead-on there, Keith. We don't know if this was his first CC or not, but given that many CFI's are just building time on the student's dime it is not unusual that the instructors themselves have minimal time, mostly spent bumping around the same milk run of local familiar airports and more often than not sharing far more of the cockpit load than they should be. So for the solo student the slightest change from routine, even if he was flying to a destination to which he had been before as "co-pilot" to his instructor, can be disorienting with all the rest that is on his lone mind... sudden change of traffic pattern or entry, often referring to landmarks familiar to local students but not visitors, etc. Once so distracted he is immediately behind the aircraft (even if it is not a Lancair smiley ) and an unforgiving controller makes things even worse. For example, the tower could have vectored him to a safe area clear of the ATA and suggested he circle for a bit and gather his thoughts.

But it still comes back to the instructor knowing his student and making sure the last ten hours or so of instruction prior to that first CC are merely as an observer. It's interesting to dust off the log book after all these years, but I consider myself lucky to have had a young but extremely tough instructor who, with my little subsidy to his log book eventually got that left seat with Flying Tigers. His attitude was basically, "you're flying the plane" from the very beginning, which was what I wanted. I grew up flying RC models, flying in friends planes, etc., thus "knew how to fly" and my experience with all things mechanical and business in two-way communications and electronics eliminated any mystery as to how things work, so it was just finding that ideal moment when I had both the time and the money (conditions seldom in alignment) to "git 'er done". I was building a national rep organization for my business and I really wanted more travel flexibility.

Anyway, that time was October 16, 1984 and the place was KHPN. Most of the fair weather flyers were done for the season, I could choose just about any equipment on the ramp, the leaves were gone and the cross-winds aplenty, so it was perfect. I soloed 20 hours later on Dec 9th and two months later flew to Groton for my first CC at 42 hrs total, eventually getting my ticket early April after a total of 5 months and 59 hours total (half solo), basically 3 hours per week, which could never have happened on a summer schedule OR with a different instructor, because we flew two or three times a week no matter what... if it was IMC we would just file, go someplace and shoot an approach, took in about ten hours at night for good measure, and he made me do it all. If I missed a radio call and asked, "What did he say?", Tom would just reply, "I dunno... Why don't you ask him?" Even flying right traffic where you might think he could help just a tad on down-wind, "Should I turn base now?"... "What, is my head in the way? Next, I suppose you'll be asking your wife."

It's all good for a chuckle now, but I thought I was pretty hot stuff until I went through that beat-down, and I early on realized it was far more important for HIM to think I was a good pilot than me. Apparently he did because two years later while on my BFR a gear emergency developed, the course of action I wished to follow as PIC differed significantly from that desired by the frightened young examiner (for example, finishing up the flight test since we had lots of fuel to burn off anyway, among other things), and his frantic call to the FBO (who owned the plane, otherwise there would have been no cockpit debate at all) resulted in my original instructor advising him in no uncertain terms that he should "Let him do whatever he thinks is best." ... But that is a story for another day.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 06:05:47 PM by InterpreDemon » Logged

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KJFK ARINC
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(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
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