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Author Topic: KFMY 4-16-2012 poor student in cross country!, many mistakes.  (Read 9458 times)
shawnbhandal
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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2012, 07:10:51 PM »

I have not listened to the clip yet, still downloading. But based on the replies here, I am wondering why is no one blaming the instructor?
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StuSEL
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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2012, 09:37:00 PM »

What instructor?
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Coalexander
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« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2012, 10:30:31 PM »

Im a student at the airport Vero Beach but  not in flightsafety (thank god).
What I heard is the training not that good at all, and that the instructors (a few not all) not really give a shit!
Trust me it is really fun to just listen to the atc in vrb at 8am when about 100 flight safety students is about to take over the sky in vero! Wink
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2012, 12:26:03 AM »

Usually the hypothetical CVR transcript for a student adventure like that ends with "sound of impact", so the fact that he was able to take a bus home and avoid killing anybody else should be considered a blessing. I agree that his instructor should never have signed off for the CC, but there again I heard that instructors in Florida only excel at teaching foreign students about the enroute phase of flight of large turbine aircraft and how to impale them into tall buildings.

Anyway, when I learned to fly at HPN in the dead of winter some thirty years ago I had already been beaten and humiliated by the machine-gun New York controllers to the point that by the time I flew to Concord, NH I felt like a Pan Am captain.
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Eric M
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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2012, 12:19:15 PM »

InterpeDemon, I wish there was a "Like" button on this thing. Bravo!
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iskyfly
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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2012, 12:45:54 PM »

What instructor?

The instructor that signed off / endorsed the student's logbook for solo flight per the following;

Quote
Sec. 61.87 — Solo requirements for student pilots.
 (a) General. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student has met the requirements of this section. The term “solo flight” as used in this subpart means that flight time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember.

 (b) Aeronautical knowledge. A student pilot must demonstrate satisfactory aeronautical knowledge on a knowledge test that meets the requirements of this paragraph:

 (1) The test must address the student pilot's knowledge of—

(i) Applicable sections of parts 61 and 91 of this chapter;

 (ii) Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo flight will be performed; and

 (iii) Flight characteristics and operational limitations for the make and model of aircraft to be flown.

 (2) The student's authorized instructor must—

(i) Administer the test; and

 (ii) At the conclusion of the test, review all incorrect answers with the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight.

 (c) Pre-solo flight training. Prior to conducting a solo flight, a student pilot must have:

 (1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and model of aircraft to be flown; and

 (2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.

 (d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-engine airplane rating or privileges must receive and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:

 (1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

 (2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

 (3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

 (4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

 (5) Climbs and climbing turns;

 (6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;

 (7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;

 (8.) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;

 (9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

 (10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;

 (11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

 (12) Ground reference maneuvers;

 (13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;

 (14) Slips to a landing; and

 (15) Go-arounds.

  (1) An endorsement from an authorized instructor on his or her student pilot certificate for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and

 (2) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown by an authorized instructor, who gave the training within the 90 days preceding the date of the flight.

 (o) Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight at night. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight at night unless that student pilot has received:

 (1) Flight training at night on night flying procedures that includes takeoffs, approaches, landings, and go-arounds at night at the airport where the solo flight will be conducted;

 (2) Navigation training at night in the vicinity of the airport where the solo flight will be conducted; and

 (3) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown for night solo flight by an authorized instructor who gave the training within the 90-day period preceding the date of the flight.

 (p) Limitations on flight instructors authorizing solo flight. No instructor may authorize a student pilot to perform a solo flight unless that instructor has—

(1) Given that student pilot training in the make and model of aircraft or a similar make and model of aircraft in which the solo flight is to be flown;

 (2) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the maneuvers and procedures prescribed in this section;

 (3) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the make and model of aircraft to be flown;

 (4) Ensured that the student pilot's certificate has been endorsed by an instructor authorized to provide flight training for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and

 (5) Endorsed the student pilot's logbook for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown, and that endorsement remains current for solo flight privileges, provided an authorized instructor updates the student's logbook every 90 days thereafter.

Shawnbhandal is correct in implying that the instructor is to share some (if not all of the) blame in this.
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martyj19
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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2012, 01:57:09 PM »

The instructor who signed off this cross country could very well have some 'splainin to do.
Moreover this particular establishment has Part 141 rights so it is possible that the supervising FSDO might take an interest in this case.

We've all got a story or two from solo cross countries though.
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2012, 02:47:25 PM »

Yeah, Marty, and doubtless most of those stories will go to the grave along with all those miraculously found sliced tee shots, unreported cash income and the other women.
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HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
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keith
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« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2012, 03:12:07 PM »

I can understand some of the controller's frustration at the beginning, but I think he crossed the line once the pilot was on the ground. He was basically just heckling the pilot the end there.

He also blocked him a number of times. In one case, he asked the pilot a question, was silent for 5 seconds, and then started transmitting with some instructions.  That's just asking for a block.

I'm baffled, however, how a student (had to be a student) could be so unprepared to fly into a towered airport and still receive a sign off from the instructor for the flight. The pilot actually sounds fairly bright to me (it's very subjective, but I have a feeling he could be getting this right if he was better prepared by his instructor).

Great recording, thanks for posting it....excellent training material for every student and private pilot as a reminder of the importance of being prepared, and the importance of listening and attempting to comply with ATC's instructions.
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2012, 05:32:18 PM »

Dead-on there, Keith. We don't know if this was his first CC or not, but given that many CFI's are just building time on the student's dime it is not unusual that the instructors themselves have minimal time, mostly spent bumping around the same milk run of local familiar airports and more often than not sharing far more of the cockpit load than they should be. So for the solo student the slightest change from routine, even if he was flying to a destination to which he had been before as "co-pilot" to his instructor, can be disorienting with all the rest that is on his lone mind... sudden change of traffic pattern or entry, often referring to landmarks familiar to local students but not visitors, etc. Once so distracted he is immediately behind the aircraft (even if it is not a Lancair smiley ) and an unforgiving controller makes things even worse. For example, the tower could have vectored him to a safe area clear of the ATA and suggested he circle for a bit and gather his thoughts.

But it still comes back to the instructor knowing his student and making sure the last ten hours or so of instruction prior to that first CC are merely as an observer. It's interesting to dust off the log book after all these years, but I consider myself lucky to have had a young but extremely tough instructor who, with my little subsidy to his log book eventually got that left seat with Flying Tigers. His attitude was basically, "you're flying the plane" from the very beginning, which was what I wanted. I grew up flying RC models, flying in friends planes, etc., thus "knew how to fly" and my experience with all things mechanical and business in two-way communications and electronics eliminated any mystery as to how things work, so it was just finding that ideal moment when I had both the time and the money (conditions seldom in alignment) to "git 'er done". I was building a national rep organization for my business and I really wanted more travel flexibility.

Anyway, that time was October 16, 1984 and the place was KHPN. Most of the fair weather flyers were done for the season, I could choose just about any equipment on the ramp, the leaves were gone and the cross-winds aplenty, so it was perfect. I soloed 20 hours later on Dec 9th and two months later flew to Groton for my first CC at 42 hrs total, eventually getting my ticket early April after a total of 5 months and 59 hours total (half solo), basically 3 hours per week, which could never have happened on a summer schedule OR with a different instructor, because we flew two or three times a week no matter what... if it was IMC we would just file, go someplace and shoot an approach, took in about ten hours at night for good measure, and he made me do it all. If I missed a radio call and asked, "What did he say?", Tom would just reply, "I dunno... Why don't you ask him?" Even flying right traffic where you might think he could help just a tad on down-wind, "Should I turn base now?"... "What, is my head in the way? Next, I suppose you'll be asking your wife."

It's all good for a chuckle now, but I thought I was pretty hot stuff until I went through that beat-down, and I early on realized it was far more important for HIM to think I was a good pilot than me. Apparently he did because two years later while on my BFR a gear emergency developed, the course of action I wished to follow as PIC differed significantly from that desired by the frightened young examiner (for example, finishing up the flight test since we had lots of fuel to burn off anyway, among other things), and his frantic call to the FBO (who owned the plane, otherwise there would have been no cockpit debate at all) resulted in my original instructor advising him in no uncertain terms that he should "Let him do whatever he thinks is best." ... But that is a story for another day.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 06:05:47 PM by InterpreDemon » Logged

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N500GS
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2012, 07:09:50 PM »

It's easy to see how the student became flustered given the tone of the controller's voice. Yes he was nervous, maybe it was his first cross country. What concerns me here is the tone of the controller's voice, and the fact he was clearly exasperated by this experience. Seriously is the the guy you want on the other end of the comm when you are in a pickle? Stay calm help the kid down and then ask him to call the tower and discuss it then. Listen to the difference in the tone of his voice used with other pilots. In my opinion he exacerbated the situation when he should have been helping. Listen to any of the ATC recordings of the guys who received Archie awards this year, they demonstrate confidence, compassion and caring, this controller needs to go back to JFK (which is where it sounds as if he came from) but my guess is it was too much for him to handle.
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2012, 08:05:04 PM »

I got my "Where the hell you going?" dress down late one crummy night while departing GSO. I requested a NE departure on rwy 5 so I could go direct to South Boston, roughly a ten degree right turn-out, and on climb-out the tower told me to turn LEFT to a heading of 060 then proceed direct. I said "LEFT to 060?" and he replied "Affirmative", so I commenced the 360 as instructed. About half way through I got his "WTF?", I told him I had asked and he had confirmed the unusual instruction and he then asked me why anybody would ever tell me to turn left to intercept a course that was to my right. I replied that I didn't know, assumed the blame, apologized for his mistake, took his subsequent hand-off and moved on. A few minutes later I heard the next guy behind me check in with departure climbing out on the reciprocal heading, meaning that they changed the active as I was taking off and I obviously got lost in the turnaround. Those things happen, and back then Dave wasn't around for us to review the audio.
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HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
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Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
shawnbhandal
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« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2012, 08:33:48 PM »

Quote
InterpreDemon

Shawnbhandal is correct in implying that the instructor is to share some (if not all of the) blame in this.


Thanks.

I will reply later, very busy these days.
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 12:00:28 AM »

Shawnbhandal , that was iskyfly's quote, but I am in agreement.
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KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
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HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
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