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Author Topic: KJFK Approach, Carnarsie Visual Transition 13L. Speedbird B777 (VIDEO)  (Read 27039 times)
davolijj
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« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2007, 09:51:34 PM »

For the S-ILS, I see a DA of 928 MSL. The 200 is the height above the touchdown. Because the terrain is not factored in, it's not technically a DH. If it said sometime like: RA 200, then it would be a DH.

Sorry Greg but I'm not buying it.  First of all the definition you quoted is an ICAO definition, Peter's was for US utilization.  Secondly if terrain or a radar altimeter were integral parts of the Decision Height concept it would be specified in the definition PJ quoted.  I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure you've been taught these things, but Peter and I already passed the instrument written and I'm with him on this one.
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JD
Greg01
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« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2007, 03:08:42 PM »

I hope i didn't sound condescending as that wasn't my intent.

Is it possible that DA is a fairly new term. That's all i've read in my books (Rod Machado).

I'm going to keep searching for now. I can't remember where, but swear i remember reading that there's is a difference between DA and DH.

Thanks,
Greg
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ogogog
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« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2007, 05:20:59 PM »

Greg,
 
you are correct a DA is a msl alt used on CAT 1 ils approaches, cat 1 ils do not have a DH.

Cat 2 ils has a DH which is a agl alt,

Cat 3 ils or at least the cat 3c dose not have a DH but has a minimum rvr value to fly the approach.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 05:38:56 PM by ogogog » Logged
Greg01
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« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2007, 05:31:31 PM »

BUF does not have CAT II minimums. ROC does though.

Thanks,
Greg
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2007, 05:37:10 PM »

Cat 2 ils has a DH which is a agl alt, if you have a copy of the ils 23 at buf and the cat 2 ils 23 for buf you will see the diffence in the minimums .

Where are you seeing an ILS CAT II for BUF?  Perhaps the runway expansion there last summer invalidated that approach?

I just checked my Jepp Charts and the NACO site and couldn't locate the current chart for a CAT II ILS approach.  Here's the NACO link:

http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
ogogog
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« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2007, 05:50:38 PM »

well they use to have one
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Greg01
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« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2007, 06:45:05 PM »

"Used to" is the key word (which explains the ALSF-2 for RWY 23). BUF does not have a CAT II approach (at least any more).

Thanks,
Greg
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2007, 10:10:11 PM »

Is it possible that DA is a fairly new term.

Greg, it appears that we are both right, however you were on to something above. 

I queried an FAA TERPster (those responsible for building and maintaining instrument approaches in the US, among other duties), who responded that "DA" is ICAO and the new FAA, whereas "DH" was the old FAA.  At the time of the old FAA, DH was interchangeable with DA, which validated my and Jim's teachings.   Now, though, is apparently a period of transition to the new FAA, which validates your teachings.  I guess this is comparable to the transition from the acronym "SID" (standard instrument departure) to "DP" (departure procedure) which occurred several years ago.

Jepp Charts, which is my provider of terminal charts, cheats by listing the DA as DA(H) on their charts.  Smiley

In the end I guess I need to start adopting the "new" FAA, since it was pointed out to me that there is now an effort by the FAA to try to distinguish between the two.

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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2007, 12:18:07 PM »

Further proof that the FAA (US) is moving towards a distinction between DA and DH.  From the latest FAA Instrument Procedures Handbook, which incidentally was just updated 2/2007 but not yet available for purchase (that I could see).

From page 5-18, as linked here: http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/

   
Quote
MINIMUM DESCENT ALTITUDE, DECISION ALTITUDE, AND DECISION HEIGHT

DA is currently used on RNAV approach charts with vertical descent guidance.
DA will replace DH for Category I precision IAPs. MDA and DA are referenced
to MSL and measured with a barometric altimeter.  CAT II and III approach
DHs are referenced to AGL and measured with a radio altimeter.

Although the TERPster whom I asked about this admitted that the quote above is flat out wrong with regards to CAT III approaches and misleading with regards to CAT II approaches (DA/DH is still considered MSL on CAT II with RA being the acronym for AGL height as published on the CAT II IAPs). 

Apparently, it is still a work in progress but one things for certain, Greg - You won't go wrong on the practical test with the knowledge you possess.  Good luck on it and again, be sure to post your practical test experience to this site.  I will be interested in reading how it went.


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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Greg01
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« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2007, 01:15:04 PM »

Thanks Peter. I'm going insane because the written is this Saturday. I'm taking multiple practice tests per day.

I appreciate the challenge that was here. Meaning: i was constantly referencing among books, especially the regulations and the AIM. I saw it as a challenge to find the correct answer.

Figures it was a new term. Many of the "older guys" (no offense intended) at my airport still use DA and DH interchangeably. However, two CFIIs (both airline pilots) said there was a difference between the two terms.

I'm glad we figured out the correct answer. If this was what the change in definition of DA and DH was like, i can't even begin to imagine what the airspace change was like!

Thanks again and i will post it!

Thanks,
Greg
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2007, 01:23:23 PM »

well they use to have one

Hey, ogogog - Is that you in the picture you are using as your avatar?   Or is that someone else?   
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2007, 01:43:44 PM »

Thanks Peter. I'm going insane because the written is this Saturday. I'm taking multiple practice tests per day.

I didn't realize you hadn't taken your written yet.  From a previous post of yours, I got the impression that you were finishing up and aiming for the practical exam sometime mid-March.

Reading of your anxiety reminded me of the many lunches I spent at my computer logged into Sporty's website, taking instrument practice test after instrument practice test.   The work eventually paid off as I scored a 98 on the real written, which was higher than the private written I took the previous year.     

Quote
I appreciate the challenge that was here. Meaning: i was constantly referencing among books, especially the regulations and the AIM. I saw it as a challenge to find the correct answer.

Participating in these types of forums and aviation-based news groups is an excellent way to retain and/or grow your aviation "book smarts."  You will find that there are times post-instrument rating where you might not recall the answer to every instrument question you encounter, but the exercise of researching it will become easier and more quickly yield the answers you may have forgotten.

I found that the information I researched well after flying IFR for many hours was more effortlessly retained, as it was more applicable to the IFR flight experiences I had accumulated to that point.

The point is to remain active in the aviation learning process and read many aviation trade magazines,  and of course fly IFR often. Living in the Northeast US and downwind of the Great Lakes, you shouldn't have any problem finding benign but challenging IFR conditions. 

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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Greg01
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« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2007, 01:55:03 PM »

Agree 100% with you about the learning post-checkride.

I take the written 1030AM at DKK Saturday. I planning my checkride for the 31st of March, my 17th birthday. It'll be a PPL and IR all in one checkride!

Should be interesting!

Greg
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ogogog
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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2007, 08:39:21 PM »

well they use to have one

Hey, ogogog - Is that you in the picture you are using as your avatar?   Or is that someone else?   

thats Gus Grissom
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athaker
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« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2007, 03:12:05 PM »

I heard a pilot ask Arnie the other day if the ILS 13L still works since it was dark and everybody was just maintaining visual separation on the Canarsie approach, or slowing to lowest practical on a busy night of departures and arrivals that same runway.

Arnie replied that it works but he's seen it twice in 3 years...that took me back to a nice old memory.  Returning from London sometime in the mid 90's, I have a vivid memory of a straight in approach to what i know now to be 13R (probably ILS) with a parallel 744 just a little ahead of us on the left side.  Below us? NYC, and the twin towers...don't think I'm going to get an approach like that anymore.

But a Canarsie approach is always fun...can usually catch a few passengers on the right side of the aircraft not quite understanding/scared how their plane is supposed to touchdown on a runway so close to them yet perpendicular.
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