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Author Topic: KJFK Stuck Mic  (Read 24912 times)
Fryy
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« on: February 12, 2007, 08:58:12 PM »

VIR9 Heavy was cleared visual approach 22R while AAL100 Heavy was in position and hold 22R. Stuck mic caused a go around.

* kjfkstuckmic.mp3 (644.08 KB - downloaded 1568 times.)
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2007, 09:07:18 PM »

VIR9 Heavy was cleared visual approach 22R while AAL100 Heavy was in position and hold 22R. Stuck mic caused a go around.

Keep in mind, too, that during a visual approach the pilot of the Virgin aircraft would have had the waiting aircraft in sight.  Regardless of whether the controller issued a go-around command, the pilot would have made his own decision to do so long before (relatively speaking) there was ever a crisis.   

Ultimately each PIC is responsible for the safety of the flight, even if that means deviating from an ATC clearance (at least in US airspace) or otherwise making a decision contrary to a controller's plan.

Edit:  Interesting that the tower issued the visual approach clearance to the Virgin aircraft.  He must have been reaffirming what approach already issued.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 09:09:59 PM by KSYR-pjr » Logged

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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2007, 09:57:26 PM »

With the new Taxi into position and hold regulations, the first airborn aircraft in sequence to the runway cannot be cleared to land untill the aircraft on the runway has been cleared for takeoff. 

The Tower can clear an aircraft for the visual approach. This is normally done when the aircraft has not gotten the airport in sight or a preceding aircraft in sight by the time they needed to be switched to the Tower. The aircraft being cleared for the visual does not have to see the aircraft holding on the runway but has to be told about him. He only has to see the aircraft he may be following or have the airport in sight.  This would have helped the situation some IMO. The other issue that can be scary is if the aircraft on the runway would have rolled just prior to the Virgin Atlantic aircraft reaching the runway and executing the go-around.

A stuck mic can be a very bad thing!

An edit to the beginning of this email about the rules governing TIPH procedures. Certain facilities have the option of clearing the aircraft on final that is #1 to land with an aircraft holding on the runway. I should have made that clear before I posted this initially.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 11:18:51 AM by CntrllrATC » Logged

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cactushp
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« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2007, 10:25:53 PM »

Nice. "Thank you for whoever had the stuck mic to cause the go around."
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Scott Mulhollan
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« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2007, 10:41:14 PM »

God, that's nothing short of VERY frustrating. Wonder if it was American on the runway that was stuck...
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2007, 10:43:24 PM »

The Tower can clear an aircraft for the visual approach. This is normally done when the aircraft has not gotten the airport in sight or a preceding aircraft in sight by the time they needed to be switched to the Tower.

Hmmm... If it weren't for your moniker, I would ask, "Are you sure about that?"   Oh, what the heck.  Are you sure about that?  Smiley   I fly a lot of real IFR and listen to a lot of ATC frequencies here in the US.  I have never heard an approach controller turn over an aircraft to tower without some type of approach clearance being granted.  In every case I have heard or have experienced, if the aircraft desires the visual and does not have the preceding aircraft or the airport in sight (this happens frequently), the approach controller with then begin giving vectors to an instrument approach.   EDIT:  By the time the aircraft should be switched to tower, I meant to include.

Furthermore, I cannot imagine what would happen if the pilot of the aircraft NEVER got the airport or other aircraft in sight after being turned over to the tower.  What then?  Tower controller starts issuing vectors to this aircraft?  Unless it were CAVU, I personally would not feel too comfortable with that instruction.

If this scenario IS allowed in the US, what is the phraseology the controller uses when turning over the aircraft?  "American 123, expect a visual clearance with tower, contact tower on xxx.xx?"   

For my education, could you post the quote from the ATC handbook (or whatever that document is called) regarding this scenario?  I don't think I learned anything new today so this could count towards my "you learn something new everyday" mantra.  Smiley

The aircraft being cleared for the visual does not have to see the aircraft holding on the runway but has to be told about him. He only has to see the aircraft he may be following or have the airport in sight.  This would have helped the situation some IMO. The other issue that can be scary is if the aircraft on the runway would have rolled just prior to the Virgin Atlantic aircraft reaching the runway and executing the go-around.

Practically speaking, the pilot of the second aircraft (had he been following a first aircraft also on a visual) would eventually need to spot the runway him/herself, as the other aircraft would have landed.  However, in a scenario where there is an aircraft in a position and hold on the runway as is here in the clip, there most likely would not be a preceding aircraft landing.   

My only reason for pointing out that the pilot of the Virgin would not have landed "on top of" the P&H American Airlines is so that someone doesn't run off to the media screaming, "There was a near disaster at JFK today!!!"    Smiley

« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 10:49:21 PM by KSYR-pjr » Logged

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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2007, 11:05:55 PM »

Ok, curiosity got me looking and this is what I found, tell me if it is applicable here:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0704.html#7-4-3

Quote
7-4-3. CLEARANCE FOR VISUAL APPROACH

ARTCCs and approach controls may clear aircraft for visual approaches using the following procedures:

NOTE-
Towers may exercise this authority when authorized by a LOA with the facility that provides the IFR service, or by a facility directive at collocated facilities.
<snip>

So apparently it is an option but personally I would not be comfortable with receiving a hand-off to tower without some type of approach clearance, that is unless I was absolutely sure that conditions would permit a visual approach.  Living and flying in lake effect snow country, I have experienced being cleared for the visual by approach, only to have a snow band move quickly over the airport and drop visibility to low IFR.    Fortunately approach was on the ball and immediately amended my clearance and started issuing vectors to the ILS.

Learn something new every day.
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aevins
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2007, 11:34:53 PM »

When the controller tells AA100 that he's transmitting on guard,"on guard", does that mean he's transmitting on 121.500?
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Miyridian
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2007, 12:09:45 AM »

When the controller tells AA100 that he's transmitting on guard,"on guard", does that mean he's transmitting on 121.500?

Yup, that's right. 121.50 is also referred to as "guard", so when someone says that they are "transmitting on guard", it means that they're transmitting on 121.50 in the hope that they'll be listening.
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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2007, 01:06:50 AM »

Ok, curiosity got me looking and this is what I found, tell me if it is applicable here:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0704.html#7-4-3

Quote
7-4-3. CLEARANCE FOR VISUAL APPROACH

ARTCCs and approach controls may clear aircraft for visual approaches using the following procedures:

NOTE-
Towers may exercise this authority when authorized by a LOA with the facility that provides the IFR service, or by a facility directive at collocated facilities.
<snip>

So apparently it is an option but personally I would not be comfortable with receiving a hand-off to tower without some type of approach clearance, that is unless I was absolutely sure that conditions would permit a visual approach.  Living and flying in lake effect snow country, I have experienced being cleared for the visual by approach, only to have a snow band move quickly over the airport and drop visibility to low IFR.    Fortunately approach was on the ball and immediately amended my clearance and started issuing vectors to the ILS.

Learn something new every day.

Thats the correct paragraph. Remember....this isn't a bad weather day, it has to be VFR for the visual approach and the tower would have you in sight when you were switched. Also an LOA has to be in place for this to be used. If ya have any questions give me a call at the tower 203-378-4106. Always happy to answer questions about ATC.

Rob
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2007, 08:20:57 AM »

Thanks, Rob.  One follow-up, again:  What is the phraseology of handing off an aircraft from approach to tower without providing an approach clearance? 
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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2007, 10:47:54 AM »

Well since it's been 18 years since I worked any approach control...lol...and without pulling out my 7110.65 I would say...

<acft callsign> fly heading ### maintain (whatever alt above the MVA) expect visual approach clearance with the tower, contact XXX tower on xxx.xx.

like I said this is my best guess without researching the reg. but it should be close.


Rob
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2007, 11:11:19 AM »

Well since it's been 18 years since I worked any approach control...lol...and without pulling out my 7110.65 I would say...

<acft callsign> fly heading ### maintain (whatever alt above the MVA) expect visual approach clearance with the tower, contact XXX tower on xxx.xx.

like I said this is my best guess without researching the reg. but it should be close.

Thanks and good to know.  Like much about IFR flight, this unique scenario is not taught in the standard IFR curriculum (at least in the US) and therefore a GA pilot could conceivably fly for years before being surprised by this.
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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2007, 11:35:01 AM »

I actually had a similar experience here at BDR with a stuck mic. If you look at the airfield diagram for BDR with the crossing runways configuration and picture a Piper Cherokee on final to Rwy 11 and another Cherokee on final to Rwy 6. Both aircraft are requesting a touch and go, the cherokee on Rwy 6 is a practice ILS approach and will be broken out at a 1 or 2 mile final. The practice ILS cherokee gets his mic stuck on a 3 mile final....oh boy.....I was able to transmit over the stuck mic enough for the cherokee on final to Rwy 11 to execute a go around and climb above the other cherokee. Of course the cherokee on Rwy 11 knew about the ILS final and was watching him also but the feeling as a controller in this instance is utter helplessness. The radio being my primary tool to control traffic has been rendered useless with this stuck mic. So any pilots out there......be very concious of that radio....if you don't hear anything on an otherwise busy frequency double check and make sure it's not you causing this "silence".
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2007, 11:43:50 AM »

So any pilots out there......be very concious of that radio....if you don't hear anything on an otherwise busy frequency double check and make sure it's not you causing this "silence".

The newer radios installed in GA aircraft have a "stuck mike" failsafe that will cut off the transmission after 30 seconds or so.  This protects against a stuck mike scenario but can be annoying when giving a long PIREP to Flight Watch. 

Of course, the average GA aircraft is something like 35 years old, so a lot are still flying around with old radios.  Smiley   And then there are those nervous students or careless CFIs who hold down the PTT switch on the yoke without realizing it, or the commercial airline pilot who reads his "From the flightdeck, this is Captain so-and-so" speech over the frequency.
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Greg01
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« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2007, 04:59:05 PM »

The GPS in our airplane (GNS430) will tell us if we are transmitting). However I always keep an eye on it and listen for long periods of silence, and even check to see that controller is still there when i think it's needed.

Greg
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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2007, 06:21:45 PM »

Yep, I have the 430 in the aircraft I fly also. Wish all radios had that feature.
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Zeppelinpilot
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« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2007, 06:55:59 PM »

The other thing to note is that JFK Tower IS a Radar Facility. Most major towers these days are. JFK CAN issue radar vectors and CAN use radar separation rules. This is another reason why they could issue an approach clearance. When i first heard it, i was very confused. I looked up that paragraph in the .65. Although it does not say it anywhere i could see, i do not belive a non radar tower or partial radar tower can gain this right to clear a/c for visual approaches. But i really might be wrong.

CTI student
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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2007, 08:30:16 PM »

The other thing to note is that JFK Tower IS a Radar Facility. Most major towers these days are. JFK CAN issue radar vectors and CAN use radar separation rules. This is another reason why they could issue an approach clearance. When i first heard it, i was very confused. I looked up that paragraph in the .65. Although it does not say it anywhere i could see, i do not belive a non radar tower or partial radar tower can gain this right to clear a/c for visual approaches. But i really might be wrong.

CTI student

RADAR is not required in the tower to be able to issue the visual approach clearance.
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Zeppelinpilot
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2007, 06:09:02 PM »

Gotch ya. Thanks for the info smiley
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EivlEvo
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« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2007, 02:18:29 PM »

I think im just thinking out of order, but I could've SWORN that just yesterday when we requested the visual approach with approach they cleared us for the approach and told us to call when we have the runway in sight... we had not called yet, and they advised us to switch to the tower. We switched to the tower and reported runway in sight and the tower cleared us to land.

Hmm... i flew on flightsim for like 30mins yesterday too, maybe im getting things mixed up.

OK... no one quote me on that.

~DAVE
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lipkinasl
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« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2007, 02:57:37 PM »

Of course there wouldn't have been any hint of a problem, if they used the European ATC rules, one play cleared for the runway at a time, i.e. arrval is told "continue with appraoach" until the departure has gone, then the controller calls the arriving plane and issues the landing clearance.  More work for the controller, since he has to speak to the arrival twice, but MUCH SAFER!!
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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2007, 03:05:40 PM »

Here is the 7110.65 guidance...

7-4-3. CLEARANCE FOR VISUAL APPROACH

ARTCCs and approach controls may clear aircraft for visual approaches using the following procedures:

NOTE-
Towers may exercise this authority when authorized by a LOA with the facility that provides the IFR service, or by a facility directive at collocated facilities.

a. Controllers may initiate, or pilots may request, a visual approach even when an aircraft is being vectored for an instrument approach and the pilot subsequently reports:

1. The airport or the runway in sight at airports with operating control towers.

2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower.

b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an overtaking aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed difference, and ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or that the pilot has been informed that weather is not available for the destination airport. Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency to receive weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available.

PHRASEOLOGY-
(Ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH RUNWAY (number);

or

(ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH TO (airport name)

(and if appropriate)

WEATHER NOT AVAILABLE OR VERIFY THAT YOU HAVE THE (airport) WEATHER.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Visual Separation, Para 7-2-1.

c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:

1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or

2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or

NOTE-
The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight.

3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual separation is provided.

d. All aircraft following a heavy jet/B757 must be informed of the airplane manufacturer and model.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Three Four Juliet, following a Boeing 757, 12 o'clock, six miles."

e. Inform the tower of the aircraft's position prior to communications transfer at controlled airports. ARTS/STARS functions may be used provided a facility directive or LOA specifies control and communication transfer points.

f. In addition to the requirements of para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, and subparas a, b, c, d, and e, ensure that the location of the destination airport is provided when the pilot is asked to report the destination airport in sight.

g. In those instances where airports are located in close proximity, also provide the location of the airport that may cause the confusion.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Five Six November, Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport is at 12 o'clock, 5 miles. Cleveland Hopkins Airport is at 1 o'clock 12 miles. Report Cleveland Hopkins in sight."

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Approaches to Multiple Runways, Para 7-4-4.

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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2007, 03:31:13 PM »

Of course there wouldn't have been any hint of a problem, if they used the European ATC rules, one play cleared for the runway at a time, i.e. arrval is told "continue with appraoach" until the departure has gone, then the controller calls the arriving plane and issues the landing clearance.  More work for the controller, since he has to speak to the arrival twice, but MUCH SAFER!!

Anticiption of separation is a much used tool for ATC. As a tower controller we are able to judge closer rates of aircraft to ensure separation is maintained. I am not familiar with European rules for ATC but am curious if the #2 aircraft on final can be cleared to land following the #1 aircraft. Or is that landing clearance also required to be withheld untill the #1 has cleared the runway?  Or is this just a rule governing aircraft in position and hold? In the instance we have heard at JFK the controller maintained positive control over his aircraft and handled the situation in accordance with the operating procedures. A stuck mic is an instance that you cannot expect, but you can prepare for as seen in his actions. If you take away too many tools for controllers to use you change our job from positive control to preventitive control and the whole airspace system becomes less effective.
So to say there wouldn't have been any hint of a problem is just wrong.....ever have an aircraft land without a landing clearance?
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« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2007, 05:22:20 PM »

With the new notice that went into effect on Feb 5th. Local Controller have to with hold landing clearance untill the traffic in position starts its roll (single runway opperation only). Now this rule can be bypassed by getting special permission. Which im sure Kennedy tower has done. It seems that all the rules the FAA comes up with these days are hollow and useless. Anyone can just fill out some paper work and get around it. Not that i think its a good rule in the first place. But still...
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