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Author Topic: KJFK Stuck Mic  (Read 15676 times)
Greg01
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« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2007, 04:59:05 PM »

The GPS in our airplane (GNS430) will tell us if we are transmitting). However I always keep an eye on it and listen for long periods of silence, and even check to see that controller is still there when i think it's needed.

Greg
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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2007, 06:21:45 PM »

Yep, I have the 430 in the aircraft I fly also. Wish all radios had that feature.
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Zeppelinpilot
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« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2007, 06:55:59 PM »

The other thing to note is that JFK Tower IS a Radar Facility. Most major towers these days are. JFK CAN issue radar vectors and CAN use radar separation rules. This is another reason why they could issue an approach clearance. When i first heard it, i was very confused. I looked up that paragraph in the .65. Although it does not say it anywhere i could see, i do not belive a non radar tower or partial radar tower can gain this right to clear a/c for visual approaches. But i really might be wrong.

CTI student
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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2007, 08:30:16 PM »

The other thing to note is that JFK Tower IS a Radar Facility. Most major towers these days are. JFK CAN issue radar vectors and CAN use radar separation rules. This is another reason why they could issue an approach clearance. When i first heard it, i was very confused. I looked up that paragraph in the .65. Although it does not say it anywhere i could see, i do not belive a non radar tower or partial radar tower can gain this right to clear a/c for visual approaches. But i really might be wrong.

CTI student

RADAR is not required in the tower to be able to issue the visual approach clearance.
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Zeppelinpilot
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2007, 06:09:02 PM »

Gotch ya. Thanks for the info smiley
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EivlEvo
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« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2007, 02:18:29 PM »

I think im just thinking out of order, but I could've SWORN that just yesterday when we requested the visual approach with approach they cleared us for the approach and told us to call when we have the runway in sight... we had not called yet, and they advised us to switch to the tower. We switched to the tower and reported runway in sight and the tower cleared us to land.

Hmm... i flew on flightsim for like 30mins yesterday too, maybe im getting things mixed up.

OK... no one quote me on that.

~DAVE
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lipkinasl
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« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2007, 02:57:37 PM »

Of course there wouldn't have been any hint of a problem, if they used the European ATC rules, one play cleared for the runway at a time, i.e. arrval is told "continue with appraoach" until the departure has gone, then the controller calls the arriving plane and issues the landing clearance.  More work for the controller, since he has to speak to the arrival twice, but MUCH SAFER!!
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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2007, 03:05:40 PM »

Here is the 7110.65 guidance...

7-4-3. CLEARANCE FOR VISUAL APPROACH

ARTCCs and approach controls may clear aircraft for visual approaches using the following procedures:

NOTE-
Towers may exercise this authority when authorized by a LOA with the facility that provides the IFR service, or by a facility directive at collocated facilities.

a. Controllers may initiate, or pilots may request, a visual approach even when an aircraft is being vectored for an instrument approach and the pilot subsequently reports:

1. The airport or the runway in sight at airports with operating control towers.

2. The airport in sight at airports without a control tower.

b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an overtaking aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed difference, and ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or that the pilot has been informed that weather is not available for the destination airport. Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency to receive weather information where AWOS/ASOS is available.

PHRASEOLOGY-
(Ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH RUNWAY (number);

or

(ident) (instructions) CLEARED VISUAL APPROACH TO (airport name)

(and if appropriate)

WEATHER NOT AVAILABLE OR VERIFY THAT YOU HAVE THE (airport) WEATHER.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Visual Separation, Para 7-2-1.

c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:

1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or

2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or

NOTE-
The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight.

3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual separation is provided.

d. All aircraft following a heavy jet/B757 must be informed of the airplane manufacturer and model.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Three Four Juliet, following a Boeing 757, 12 o'clock, six miles."

e. Inform the tower of the aircraft's position prior to communications transfer at controlled airports. ARTS/STARS functions may be used provided a facility directive or LOA specifies control and communication transfer points.

f. In addition to the requirements of para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, and subparas a, b, c, d, and e, ensure that the location of the destination airport is provided when the pilot is asked to report the destination airport in sight.

g. In those instances where airports are located in close proximity, also provide the location of the airport that may cause the confusion.

EXAMPLE-
"Cessna Five Six November, Cleveland Burke Lakefront Airport is at 12 o'clock, 5 miles. Cleveland Hopkins Airport is at 1 o'clock 12 miles. Report Cleveland Hopkins in sight."

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Approaches to Multiple Runways, Para 7-4-4.

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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2007, 03:31:13 PM »

Of course there wouldn't have been any hint of a problem, if they used the European ATC rules, one play cleared for the runway at a time, i.e. arrval is told "continue with appraoach" until the departure has gone, then the controller calls the arriving plane and issues the landing clearance.  More work for the controller, since he has to speak to the arrival twice, but MUCH SAFER!!

Anticiption of separation is a much used tool for ATC. As a tower controller we are able to judge closer rates of aircraft to ensure separation is maintained. I am not familiar with European rules for ATC but am curious if the #2 aircraft on final can be cleared to land following the #1 aircraft. Or is that landing clearance also required to be withheld untill the #1 has cleared the runway?  Or is this just a rule governing aircraft in position and hold? In the instance we have heard at JFK the controller maintained positive control over his aircraft and handled the situation in accordance with the operating procedures. A stuck mic is an instance that you cannot expect, but you can prepare for as seen in his actions. If you take away too many tools for controllers to use you change our job from positive control to preventitive control and the whole airspace system becomes less effective.
So to say there wouldn't have been any hint of a problem is just wrong.....ever have an aircraft land without a landing clearance?
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Zeppelinpilot
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« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2007, 05:22:20 PM »

With the new notice that went into effect on Feb 5th. Local Controller have to with hold landing clearance untill the traffic in position starts its roll (single runway opperation only). Now this rule can be bypassed by getting special permission. Which im sure Kennedy tower has done. It seems that all the rules the FAA comes up with these days are hollow and useless. Anyone can just fill out some paper work and get around it. Not that i think its a good rule in the first place. But still...
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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2007, 09:51:45 PM »

But if that tower has core logic systems (operating of course)you do not have to withhold landing clearance. However there is a memo out that this is being reviewed, but I forget the date this would go into effect. My tower, as of the 5th, cannot clear the #1 aircraft to land until you clear the aircraft on the runway for takeoff.
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Skyhawk890
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« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2007, 01:31:56 PM »

Rob-

Just out of curiosity, as a tower controller, what else would you do to issue the go-around after a stuck-mic situation?  Do controllers (normally) call the landing aircraft on guard?  Would they attempt to use light gun signals?  Flash or turn off runway lights??  Some of these questions may sound bizzare, but I wonder what the FAA has given you for last-minute life-saving techniques - or is it up to you to figure it out in an *emergency*?

Thanks

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Studentpilo
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« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2007, 02:12:34 PM »

Ya that makes me wonder. Is it an actual FAA regulation that in a stuck mic situation pilots should monitor 121.5 in case ATC comes on that?
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Greg01
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« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2007, 07:55:18 PM »

Pilots should always be monitoring 121.5. It's in the regs somewhere.

Greg
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CntrllrATC
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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2007, 10:23:43 PM »

Skyhawk, to answer your question I am going to say all of the above. In the situation at JFK and the one I had we were able to overpower the stuck mic to a degree the other aircraft could here our control instructions. The problem is that the aircraft with the stuck mic will never be able to hear anything over the radio. If you needed to communicate with that aircraft then visual means are all you have, for the most extent, such as light gun signals (which are only good if the aircraft is aware of the problem and cannot correct it and is looking at the tower). Or the runway lights which are not very noticable in the daytime and if they are it may take awhile for the pilots to realize what it means (wow....look at the runway lights....never seen them do that before). We can try to transmit over the VOR frequency (this will only work if the pilots have the nav radio volume up enough to hear which is not likely the case) I have sent out the Ops personnel to the aircraft to get their attention (this only works of course if the aircraft are on the ground....lol) The most successful means of preventing a stuck mic is the diligence of the pilots. Being able to realize that they have one in the first place is the biggest hurdle to overcome. Newer radios have an indicator that shows when the radio is transmitting, some have a time limit of how long they will stayed transmitting.
I'm not sure if there is a reg that states you will switch to 121.5 when a stuck mic is detected on the frequency but it is a good idea to monitor guard when able. I have used my ground frequency as a starting point to clear up a stuck mic issue but that would be difficult at places like JFK due to the amount of traffic on ground. But at smaller airports it's an option, but you have to be careful of airborn communications on a ground frequency due to the proximity of other airports that may have the same frequency for ground that would hear the towers tranmissions. This is the reason that airborn communications are restricted from ground control frequencies. My tower does not monitor 121.5 because we have a co-located FSS on the field and they are delegated to monitor guard (sounds silly dosen't it) We do have a portable transciever that we use in such situations if needed. Also, alot of general aviation aircraft only have one radio or only one that works....lol.

Sorry this ended up long winded but I hope I've answered your question. Remember I don't claim to know everthing, after 24 years as a controller I am still learning new ways to control traffic. There may be other opinions on how to handle these situations.

Rob
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