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Author Topic: KLAX Final asking difference between RJ700 and 900  (Read 3533 times)
PRFlyer
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« on: November 25, 2013, 11:06:13 PM »

KLAX asking RJ pilot the difference between the 700 and 900.
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jblack0301
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2013, 01:11:40 PM »

Strange.  You'd think that they should know that...
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swa4678
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2013, 01:51:34 PM »

You'd think that they should know that...
Why on earth would you say that?

I'm surprised the pilot didn't come back with the difference being "about 200."  grin
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jblack0301
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2013, 04:16:24 PM »

Because I have little knowledge of aviation, what they see on their screens, and that particular aircraft type, and even I knew what the difference is.  It's not that complicated.

EDIT:  Plus, shouldn't they have memorized all of the aircraft types, their codes, their specifications, and performance abilities when being trained?  I'd just hope so.  That's like them seeing B737 on their screen, and then later a B736 and being "Duhhhh, what kind of plane are you?"
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 04:18:18 PM by jblack0301 » Logged
swa4678
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2013, 04:36:56 PM »

Because I have little knowledge of aviation, what they see on their screens, and that particular aircraft type, and even I knew what the difference is.  It's not that complicated.
It's also not relevant.

You've got two blips on your scope. One represents a 2-engine turbojet of medium weight class. The other represents a 2-engine turbojet of medium weight class. Both have an identical rated service ceiling of FL410 and both can exceed Mach .80 in cruise. End of story.

Emergency situations aside, the number/configuration of seats, livery, and the name of the cute blonde flight attendant serving drinks... such details don't really mean anything to ATC.

EDIT:  Plus, shouldn't they have memorized all of the aircraft types, their codes, their specifications, and performance abilities when being trained?  I'd just hope so.
Uh... yeah, you keep hoping that. Don't hold your breath, though. Wink Out of curiosity, do you have an idea as to how many aircraft type codes are currently in existence?

That's like them seeing B737 on their screen, and then later a B736 and being "Duhhhh, what kind of plane are you?"
Hopefully they wouldn't say that on frequency since again, I doubt they could care less what the differences are between the two. They're both 2-engine large turbojets with very similar specs as far as speeds and climb/descent profiles are concerned.
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jblack0301
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2013, 06:16:11 PM »

I realize that there's thousands upon thousands of aircraft codes out there.  But when we're talking about CRJ's (planes that are very common in this area of the world) they ought to know what they are.  Sure if it was some Russian-made plane that was build in Russia, and made a trip over the Pacific to LAX, and it's one that hasn't been seen before, it would be understandable.  But a plane as popular as an RJ?  That's surprising.

I completely agree that they know it's an RJ, and regardless of the variant, it has the same (if not very similar) characteristics as other RJ's.  But every aircraft code seems to follow a similar pattern. 

B741, B742, B743, B744, B748
B731, B732, B733, B734, B735, B736, B737, B738, B739
A318 A319 A320 A321
CRJ1 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9

As that variant increases, the newer the aircraft, or larger the aircraft.  I KNOW IT'S NOT LIKE THAT FOR EVERY ONE!  But if anyone knew that, I thought it'd be the controllers...  huh
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w0x0f
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2013, 12:56:48 PM »

You would be surprised then to know that some noob radar controllers are baffled why C130s are faster than C182s.   wink
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jblack0301
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2013, 01:43:23 PM »

You would be surprised then to know that some noob radar controllers are baffled why C130s are faster than C182s.   wink

LOL!  A perfect example of aircraft codes that don't follow the same pattern as the one's I mentioned.  Tongue
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major22
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2013, 05:22:51 PM »

As that variant increases, the newer the aircraft, or larger the aircraft.  I KNOW IT'S NOT LIKE THAT FOR EVERY ONE!  But if anyone knew that, I thought it'd be the controllers...  huh
I have been a controller for over 7 years. Most controllers could care less how many seats are in a plane. We are trained on performance. There is no reason why I need to know what the difference from a b737 to b738 to b739. They all fly the same to me. As an approach controller they all fly headings I give them and slow to speed I assign. Now knowing the weight class is very important for wake turb separation.  That is something we are trained on.  But it is impossible to know every single aircraft.
In the center environment climb performance and Mach numbers are important. The aircraft fly a little different but not by much. It all depends on the airline that flys the plane.
Most of the time if I ask a question to a pilot it is because we are talking about it in the control room.
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joeyb747
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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2013, 04:49:26 PM »

You would be surprised then to know that some noob radar controllers are baffled why C130s are faster than C182s.   wink

 cheesy cool
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2013, 12:11:43 PM »

I definitely would have piped up with "oh about 200 or so"

Because I have little knowledge of aviation
This is quite obvious.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 03:22:22 PM by NoMad » Logged
bn2av8r
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 09:59:09 AM »

As that variant increases, the newer the aircraft, or larger the aircraft.  I KNOW IT'S NOT LIKE THAT FOR EVERY ONE!  But if anyone knew that, I thought it'd be the controllers...  huh
I have been a controller for over 7 years. Most controllers could care less how many seats are in a plane. We are trained on performance. There is no reason why I need to know what the difference from a b737 to b738 to b739. They all fly the same to me. As an approach controller they all fly headings I give them and slow to speed I assign. Now knowing the weight class is very important for wake turb separation.  That is something we are trained on.  But it is impossible to know every single aircraft.
In the center environment climb performance and Mach numbers are important. The aircraft fly a little different but not by much. It all depends on the airline that flys the plane.
Most of the time if I ask a question to a pilot it is because we are talking about it in the control room.

BUT, if the controller doesn't know the basic type of aircraft, that can be dangerous as well.  A couple of years ago I was on with Bakersfield Approach (where I assume the radar shows tags of speed and altitude just like everywhere else) and was descending through 11,000 doing 320 knots groundspeed.  The controller gave another aircraft a traffic call about us saying "Cessna ……., you have traffic at your 11 o'clock, descending out of 11, a Bell Helicopter"  He was not familiar with our filing code of B462 and just assumed we were a helicopter, not a 4 engine jet which we really were.  So now the Cessna is scanning the skies for a whirly bird.  He could of at least asked us what we were, as we get most of the time from other controllers.
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orlondo1
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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2013, 07:09:41 PM »

The type and difference of a/c are very important to know. Controllers are definitely knowledgable in all areas they need to be. The difference between an CRJ7 and CRJ9 is not that important to us, for the most part. Most of us do know the know difference just by looking out the window. In this case we don't need to know if there are 20 more people are on one a/c or the other. What we care about is that they both will rotate, climb, hit the beach at 150-160kts and climb at certain rates. There are plenty of other items that we need to know that include the type of a/c. It's not always easy being roughly 200+ ft up and looking anywhere between 1/4sm and a mile away to identify a/c. For those that say controllers "should know the basic aircraft codes(which are actually a/c identifiers)", did you know that a B772 and B77L are able to taxi on C8 and C9 but a B773 and B773 cannot? A B747(any type) cannot taxi on C9 if they are east bound on C transitioning to B. The largest a/c that can use D between D8 and & D7 is a B763. If you have an A320 holding on AA between the rwys, the largest a/c you can have behind it is a CRJ2 in order to still use rwy 24L? These are just small samples of all the restrictions placed at LAX. This is not to spark a debate or anything, it's solely for the purpose of education and to not discount the knowledge and/or ability of the people keeping the flying public safe.
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Adrian8
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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2013, 10:38:38 AM »

There is no reason why I need to know what the difference from a b737 to b738 to b739.

I would imagine that tower controllers are quite aware of the difference in performance between the -700 and the -900. It is apparent to even the most casual of observers.
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