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Author Topic: KLM fuel emergency - divert from CYYZ to KSYR  (Read 27067 times)
IndyTower
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« on: August 03, 2005, 10:29:11 AM »

Giving this another try.  Heard this on the YYZ archive just minutes after Air France crashed.  Some is from the YYZ feed and some from SYR.
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davolijj
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2005, 10:44:26 AM »

It's pretty nice when you can find both the departure and destination airports in the archives for posting.  Nice Clip Indy...
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Regards
JD
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2005, 10:56:41 AM »

Quote from: IndyTower
Giving this another try.  Heard this on the YYZ archive just minutes after Air France crashed.  Some is from the YYZ feed and some from SYR.


Great job.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Neil
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2005, 12:03:26 AM »

Great stuff. Its reassuring as a pilot to listen to all the clips ive heard on here today....
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tmpd140
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2005, 12:09:30 AM »

That was great. I got to see the landing of this bird (very rare at KSYR) and listening to the ATC clips was awesome.  Thanks. Cool
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RachPreC3M
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2005, 01:55:10 AM »

My question is why would the pilot have a low fuel emergency... He just barely got diverted... He should have enough fuel to reach his alternate without a problem. Sounds like Pilot Error to me. Or just someone looking for priority.

My thoughts anyway.
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Jason
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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2005, 08:51:41 AM »

I agree with you, but I do not know the full situation.  Was he held previously to being diverted?
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2005, 09:39:31 AM »

Maybe his original alternate had become unacceptable because of the same weather they had on YYZ airport?
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Rikkie
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2005, 09:54:34 AM »

You are probably right since often Niagara Falls is used as alternate for YYZ.
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IndyTower
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2005, 10:34:44 AM »

I know that KLM went missed...was just 2 or 3 in line after Air France.  I don't believe it held at all.  I'll have all afternoon off today, so I'll make a clip of before/right after the crash...what leads up to the KLM clip.  Look for that by 4 Central.
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IndyTower
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2005, 10:46:12 AM »

I just listened to the clip again...sounds like they had enough to go to SYR and enough to go around...

"We've got just about enough fuel to go to Syracuse, and land there with 30 minutes."

I'm taking that as "with 30 minutes remaining."  So I'm guessing if they get down to a certain level, they have to declare a fuel emergency, more for priority than anything.  May not be an emergency as in they're running dangerously low on fuel, but an emergency as in if they hold they won't have enough to divert and enough to go around if needed.  Thats what I'd guess the situation is.
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IndyTower
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2005, 04:09:21 PM »

Actually probably not much using in making another clip as it's probably all on the clip on the main page of the site.
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ChristopherT
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2005, 04:15:25 PM »

Quote from: IndyTower
Actually probably not much using in making another clip as it's probably all on the clip on the main page of the site.


 Is there any idea when the speed limit on the KSYR files will be lifted?  I'd
like to at least download the files that cover the departure time of the KLM
from KSYR.  I'm curious where they went after departing Syracuse.

 Thanks!

 Former Syracusian
 Christopher
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2005, 10:21:56 PM »

Quote from: ChristopherT
Is there any idea when the speed limit on the KSYR files will be lifted?


Whoa, you're right!  There still appears to be a download speed restriction on the archives.  

Quote
I'd like to at least download the files that cover the departure time of the KLM from KSYR.  


I just checked to see if the August 2nd 5:00pm and 5:30pm Eastern archives for SYR were in the archive library and unfortunately they are not available.  Knowing that the feed was indeed up, I suspect that this unavalibility was perhaps caused by this site getting hammered by everyone looking for the Air France communications.   This timeframe is most likely when the KLM 747 departed.

Quote
I'm curious where they went after departing Syracuse.


I read in an aviation newsgroup that the aircraft departed SYR and flew on to Montreal, Canada.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
IndyTower
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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2005, 02:39:02 AM »

Just checked on fboweb.com...this is what is shows.  That's info available with a subscription.  


KLM691   B744   SYR   CYYZ   8/3/2005 12:28:50 AM

So it went back to Toronto.  The time given is Zulu.  I think that'd be about 7:28PM local Syracuse time (Eastern).  I tried to download the archive for that time frame, but it was taking quite a while.  A 30 min archive usually takes about 30 secs on my computer and it would have been well over two hours today, so I stopped the download.
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turicus
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« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2005, 10:20:11 AM »

The FAR's say that for VFR flights, you need at least 30 minutes fuel reserve during the day, IFR i'm not certain, but it's more like 45 mins.  If you have to dig into your reserves and ATC doesn't give you a timely landing you might be screwed so declaring that emergency will give you the priority you need to land.  So if they had to cut their flight short to KSYR and still only have 30 mins then they needed to divert.

There was an article in Flying Magazine by Les Abend that talked about missed approaches and burning fuel/cutting into the reserves.  I'll try to find the article...ah, March 2005 Jumpseat article on page 99.  "The Comfort Zone" by Les Abend.  I'd highly recommend reading it (especially if you're a pilot).
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ChristopherT
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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2005, 03:36:11 PM »

Quote from: KSYR-pjr

Whoa, you're right!  There still appears to be a download speed restriction on the archives.  

I read in an aviation newsgroup that the aircraft departed SYR and flew on to Montreal, Canada.


 Thanks for checking!  It will probably get better as the media calms down
about the accident.  No big deal, I can keep checking the archive.  I wish I had known about this site earlier.  
 
  Thanks!

       Christopher
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ChristopherT
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« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2005, 03:38:45 PM »

Quote from: IndyTower
Just checked on fboweb.com...this is what is shows.  That's info available with a subscription.  


KLM691   B744   SYR   CYYZ   8/3/2005 12:28:50 AM

So it went back to Toronto.  The time given is Zulu.  I think that'd be about 7:28PM local Syracuse time (Eastern).  I tried to download the archive for that time frame, but it was taking quite a while.  A 30 min archive usually takes about 30 secs on my computer and it would have been well over two hours today, so I stopped the download.


 Thanks, IndyTower!  I wonder how long CYYZ was closed after the
accident then?  I would've assumed it would have stayed closed at
least overnight.  

  Christopher
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Hobbyist
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« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2006, 09:31:39 PM »

There is a correction on the flight number. It is KLM 691 Heavy not KLM 693 Heavy, to SYR. From Hobbyist.
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flyer_d
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2006, 02:42:21 PM »

What is swinging the localizer?  I'm not familiar with that term.  The localizer is an installed antenna array ....
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IndyTower
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2006, 03:26:23 PM »

My understanding is that the ILS can only be "up" for one direction of the runway at a time.  So, if it is up for runway 28, it must be taken down in order to have it up for runway 10, but both can not be operating at the same time.  In order for KLM to come straight in, they needed to switch so they would be able to land with as little flying time and fuel as possible.  I'm sure someone will be clarify this some, but there's a starting point for now.
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flyer_d
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2006, 06:04:23 PM »

That must be it.

I just pulled the plates.  The LOCs for 10 and 28 are on the same frequency -- 109.9.  (I don't know if that is common; I'll have to look around.)  Even if there were no change in the centerline for the opposite operations, one LOC direction would have to be set as primary to avoid reverse sensing.

Thanks for the help!
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Jason
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2006, 06:07:40 PM »

Quote from: flyer_d
The LOCs for 10 and 28 are on the same frequency -- 109.9.  (I don't know if that is common; I'll have to look around.)


It's very common.
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